| Archive for Yami Forums A Yami no Matsuei forum where fans of the show can mingle and discuss it. |
| Editor |
Defend your characterYami no Matsuei is filled with a vast array of complicated characters. And as such there's bound to be misconcptions of them depending on the watcher or reader of the series. For a change I thought I'd make a forum where fan's who like certain characters can defend them from the misconceptions others may have of that character, for example, to some Tsuzuki may seem whiny, Hisoka is famed for being labelled self-pitying and annoying, while Watari is sometimes called fake with no depth, and so the list goes on.I don't agree with any of these of course but I want to know what the fans think. There are many characters I'm sick of seeing bashed to depth with no real evidence and will defintely be adding my say soon. ~Coco |
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| laustic |
Sometimes I'm just amazed at how people can get a character so wrong. I know that Hisoka's coldness can get to people but they seem to like to forget everything Hisoka's been through. His parents left him emotionally scarred due to their neglect. Even though we don't see it that much, I'm sure Hisoka has to have some issues with itimacy and sex. The rape certainly didn't help him trust people. Hisoka's coldness and reserved nature is his protection from getting close to people. I can't say that I blame, considering the people who should love him more than anything else in the world branded him a monster. I hate to see Hisoka when he finds out that not only does he have a sister but that his father deeply loved her while he shunned his other child. Hisoka has the tendacy to believe people will give up on him and leave him. I found it rather heart breaking in the third episode of the anime that Hisoka honestly believed that no one was coming to rescue him. It was quite a shock when Tsuzuki came and did rescue him. While this act has won Tsuzuki Hisoka's trust, its not all sun and roses. Hisoka still maintained a cold attitude to Tsuzuki and calls him an idiot but this really is all an act. Hisoka's still scared of getting hurt and it'll be a long time before he can get over all that he has suffered. | ||||||||
| admin |
Peoples attitude towards characters has always disturbed me somewhat, it makes me wonder what they think of people in real life if their attitudes towards fiction, characters and personality's is so warped.
Strangely enough the complaint I see with Hisoka is not a hatred of his coldness but in fact something quite opposite. That Hisoka is in fact a weak whiny damsil in distress character who is self-pitying fake-cute and pathetic which is so bizzare since there's little evidence of this in the show. I always imagined that these people are envious of Yoko's concentration of Hisoka's relationship with Tsuzuki because they want Tsuzuki wih Muraki or Tatsumi or some other character, and so imagine all these fictional attributes based on Hisoka's bad luck and soft fair look. I'm just guessing, because I defintely see that kind of Hisoka bashing all over the internet and it doesn't upset me as much as it simply reeeally baffles me. ~Coco |
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| laustic |
I agree that people are jealous of the focus on the Tsuzuki/Hisoka relationship. One time I decided to check out some Tsuzuki/Muraki fanfics and I noticed a distinct lack of Hisoka. There even was a summary of a story where Tsuzuki gave himself over to Muraki to save Tatsumi not Hisoka. I think these fans don't want to have Hisoka in their fics because they have to face the bond that the two have. It also amazes me how Hisoka is seen as a weak damsel. I like to know where this comes from. | ||||||||
| measuring time |
Well, the weak damsel thing either comes from the fact that they envy that closeness he has or the fact that, that is their idealistic view of relationships. I cannot list how many fics I have seen lie in ruin because they placed his character as such. We all know Hisoka is not, under any circumstance, a pathetic damsel. Sure, like everyone else he has his weaker moments, but he's quite the strong character if I say so myself. Also, they can't seem to truly balance out his character nine times out of ten. Many writers seem to make him too strong or too weak. Though, usually, when this occurs it is in a negative light. I'm quite sorry, but Hisoka is most certainly not an evil overlord or a completely unfeeling, uncompassionate, being - nor is he a whiny, Mary Sue-esque personality. Yes, he puts up a rather callous front. Yes, he's quite ill-tempered when provoked. However, under no circumstance is he a wishy-washy, helpless, "maiden". Ech. Also, I tend to see that some writers are also intimidated by the complexity of Tsuzuki's and Hisoka's relationship, so they avoid it all together just to save their skins. In my personal opinion, if you are going to write a Yami no Matsuei fan fiction that involves Tsuzuki, Hisoka has to be inevitably thrown in there somewhere unless this is taking place prior to their partnership. Err, sorry if I managed to accidentally (if I did at all) get off track. |
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| admin |
laustic is brave to look up Tsuzuki/Muraki fanfiction because I still haven't read (though I haven't read very many-for this reason) one that I found to be very good. But yeah your right. And I think I might of read a fanfic like that about Tatsumi giving himself over to save Tatsumi with practically, I'm not sure now, I can't see how Tatsumi would need saving from Muraki when it's clear the guy could tear Muraki a new hole if he really needed to.
Measuring Time basically summed up the whole thing in a nut shell, I don't even know what I can add to tha, but it's completely right. Hisoka's character is always famed with being ten times easier to write then Tsuzuki's but I think that's false and that their just as difficult to write as eachother and even harder in interaction. But this is all something to consider and write in another thread another time. Though it's important to bring up when arguing in defense of his character. I know I'm more likely to elict a moan or two but I feel I must but Tsubaki up for defense because I feel her character suffers a hard time, my opinion is here on my website, I try my best with it but I find it hard to defend Tsubaki properly because she's much more sticky to explain then other characters: http://www.freewebs.com/coco_melancholy/Tsubakihime.htm ~Coco |
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| measuring time |
I concur. I have no idea how in the world the conception of that idea came to be, but Hisoka isn't an easy character to write, at all. Like all other fan fiction, you have to have a firm grasp on the actual emotions, motivations, and thought patterns of the character in question in order to compose something that is stellar instead of something prosaic. You have to force yourself inside that character's head and, if necessary, continuously question: "Would they do this/say this/think this?" It takes hours and hours and hours of practice. They let their idealism take over when writing him. This idealism also seems to run strongly in their interaction. I have seen many writers fail to capture their dialogue. I find that to be the most challenging part of writing anything for this series. It's quite enjoyable once you get the hang of it, however. I cringe each time I see something uncharacteristically weak and whiny come from him in fan fiction. Much like I cringe when I see uncharacteristically harsh, brutal, and over-top come from him. Again, it requires the perfect balance of emotion. (Sorry for the potential ramble-esque quality of this. I found it necessary to support your statement.)
Not from me you won't. Actually, I thank you immensely. I'm enthralled! I have the same feeling about her character. Actually, I pulled this right from my livejournal: As much as people really hate Tsubaki, I find her to be sort of interesting at this point. She's like Yuiko of Loveless. I'm not sure why people hate her, either. I mean, honestly, will people ever get over the fact that it's not going to be an automatic romance (if a romance at all, for those see this as debatable) between the main characters? That would be tactless and distasteful. That's the whole beauty of that implication. It's subtle and yet, not. I think Hisoka grew a bit from that experience. It made him absolutely intriguing. It heightened his capacity for compassion. It made him closer to Tsuzuki. It made him more able and willing to generally feel. It made him realize that he's running on hatred. It made him realize much later that that's one of the only things he has to keep him going. That is, until Tsuzuki wormed his way in. I think he's starting to realize what exactly he's stepped into, little by little. However, I agree, her character is much more difficult to defend; then again, this is due to her course of action during that particular plot. I, being how I am, happened to just come up with the more obvious reasons listed above as to why I think she needs support. I could have gotten much more in depth, but that would require a mass amount of space. |
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| laustic |
I never understood why people hated Tsubaki so much. I always viewed her and Hisoka as kindred spirits. They do have alot in come and their feelings for Muraki is incredibly strong: he hates Muraki with a passion and she's absolutly in love with him. Tsubaki also has incredible insight on people. She understood that Tsuzuki loved Hisoka even before Hisoka realized that. She's often misunderstood in the YnM fandom. | ||||||||
| admin |
You both added even more of the feelings I have on Tsubaki, especially that kindred spirits thing from laustic, the fact her and Hisoka are so connected to Muraki, Hisoka even said that he felt like he'd seen her before. In that little segment I wrote specifically on Tsubaki and am not even going to go into her and Hisoka together @__@ especailly since Measuringtime wrote beautifully how I felt about it, I liked Hisoka's character but no more then other characters, that is until I read book three, it was his development in that story that reeeeally got me. I retold it to my mum, (who is as hard and cold as nails) and she wailed with sympathy thinking it so tragic.
Another point that has just occured to me now is that Tsubaki may seem like an annoying wedge between the most prominent pairing fans since she her and Hisoka have some strong feelings between them and TsuzukixHisoka fans might not like that while she harbors a love for the doctor where as TsuzukixMuraki fans might not like that either. *shakes head* I dunno. Anyway, yeah, my spelling is AWFUL, *looks over stuff written in the thread* sheesh, no more internet after 10 man >< Anyway to be honest I've always found it a difficult thing to write Tsuzuki and Hisoka as well, which is why I'm stalling with fic's that have alternate angles and devoping things slowly until and can sow it all together in an accurate knot. |
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| Veleda |
While I'd love to go into extensive detail about my feelings for both Hisoka and Tsubaki, right now I'm incredibly exhausted. Therefore, I only quote from my lj:
So, Hisoka and Tsubaki-hime, what's up with them? Well, it wasn't love, we know that much. Tsubaki said out loud that she tried and failed to fall in love with Hisoka, and Hisoka simply isn't the type to fall in love with someone he only met a few days ago. What was it, then? I'm not sure yet. What I can say is what they wanted it to be. What we have here is two people who are both desperate for a normal relationship. Once again, Tsubaki is quite clear about this. She wanted to love Hisoka instead of Muraki. With Hisoka it's more inference. We know that he's never been normal, but it seems clear to me that he wants to be. He hates the empathy that makes him different. It's hardly surprising that he would want a normal relationship. I love Hisoka/Tsuzuki; it's my favorite pairing, but those two do not have what I would call a normal relationship. Some people don't like Tsubaki because she used Hisoka. Well, if you go by my theory, Hisoka was using her too, though he wasn't aware of it. I want to make it clear that I do not fault either of them for this. They were two kids in a very unpleasant and frightening situation, and they dealt with it the best they could. You may notice that I repeatably point out that Tsubaki and Hisoka do the same thing, but the biggest difference is that Tsubaki is aware of what she's doing and says so out loud, while Hisoka is unaware and the reasons for his actions must be inferred. This is one of the reasons I'm so interested in Tsubaki. She's so very aware (there's that word again) of what's going on around her, however, despite that, she's still trapped in the same position she'd be in if she was completely ignorant. So, back the question I've been trying avoid: what did Hisoka and Tsubaki feel for each other? It's clear that she cared for him. She comforted him after he tells her about his past with Muraki and then again right before he shoots her. One of the reasons I like her so much is that her perceptiveness in these scenes really impresses me, especially the last one. That could be the Tsuzuki/Hisoka fan in me talking though. We also know that she meant enough to Hisoka to get him really fucking pissed when Muraki brings her up in Kyoto. Hisoka's actions concerning her during the Queen Camellia arc itself could be written of as nothing more than heat of the moment emotion and empathizing with her over the way Muraki treated her, but the rage he shows in Kyoto definitely signals something more (in my opinion at least). In the end, I still don't know what they had together. This makes me sad, as Hisoka/Tsubaki-hime is so my dirty little secret pairing. |
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| pyro_o |
AKSLDJFAOSDJFD SO TRUE~~
dang. Why are there so many LJ users?? =DD |
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| Whispers of a Ghost |
'Cause you keep plugging to the LJ users, that's why. 
Anyways, I know a lot of you from FF.net, and you may know me, so what's up me homies?!
I'm sorry, but I can't just force myself to like Tsubaki. When you think about it, she used Hisoka like a pawn. She attatched herself to him just to forget about Muraki, not because she loved him. She may not have meant to hurt Hisoka, but I think she did. Also, the fact that she knew Dr. Muraki was usuing her to hurt people, and yet she turned a blind eye?! Okay, not gonna get into that now and have people tear at my throats. Moving on... I hate how they make Hisoka, in fanfic, some weepy, whiny, hormonal little bitch. I blame it on the fact that Yoko drew him as a more feminine character than the others. Because he's small with pale skin and big ol' pretty eyes, they strap the high heels on him and shove on the frilly dress. That's the only reason why they haven't done it to Tsuzuki. I swear, if Tsuzuki was feminine looking like Hisoka, he'd get the ukeinizing threatment too, but he looks more muscular, making him the macho man of the group. It's sad to stay, but a lot of the younger and stupider (I don't pull punches, here) members of the fandom see Tsuzuki as an older man and Hisoka as younger. Also, I hate to say this, but the fact that Muraki raped Hisoka doesn't help him much in the fandom, because it makes the rabid-authors see him as a feminine, delicate person that can't handle himself. So, the fact that Hisoka has less stamina and health than the others, looks weak and pale and thin, was raped, and then looks feminine is like a magnet for girls to ukify him. I also think they pin the macho and femmy roles on Tsuzuki and Hisoka is another side effect: the fact that Yami no Matsuei is often watched by girls in their tweens (they even state so in their profiles on FF.net!). What I've seen is that a large portion of the YnM fanbase is thirteen or so-ish, even some younger, and while I don't want to stereotype the sane writers in a bunch, most of this group hasn't had exposures to anything but heterosexual romances in the world yet, since the issues of gayness probably aren't touched in a household until the kiddies are older. Then Yami no Matsuei comes along, and they decide to write fanfiction. Unfortunately, they only know the manly, handsome boy and the helpless girl, so they try to conform the male characters into the molds thinking that "gay men and girl's can't be all that different". Guess what, tweeny-boppers. They ARE. Again, no offence to the younger writers who are actually good and mature. I applaud you. ::golf claps:: Unfortunately, their lack of maturity also accounts for they so much angst is...wangst in YnM fanfiction. Their only exposures to real angst are angsty goth cutters on MySpace, fighitng with their parents, and Good Charlotte. Again, they have not yet gone out into the world to experience what TURE depression is and how deep and complex it can be. So, once again, not knowing how to handle Tsuzuki and Hisoka's angst, they shove it into whining and cutting and have it instantly cureable, which is what the angst of that age is. Okay, there's my theory on the State of the YnM Fandom Union (tm), so moving on... I hate how the fandom treats Watari. Honestly, he's an engineer and a scientist, and has SUCH a cool power which I'd love to work with, yet the fanfic writers rarely explore his character. Watari DOES have more depth than the smiley, exuberant dude he appears to be most of the time (thank you, Gen Sou Kai arc, for brining in the Mother Project). Anyway, this guy is intelligent, and is such a creative, warm-hearted character which a cunning and devious side to him. Yet why do fanbrats only make him a cheerful airhead or a bucket-o-wangst hiding his TRUE PAIN OMG. So yeah... |
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| pyro_o |
Oh. Wow. Sooner or later, you're gonna put coco-chan to shame on your speeches. DAANG.
but I get what you mean- the fanfiction world underappreciates Watari!!! >( ..what's a golf clap? |
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| Whispers of a Ghost |
Hey, I've been known to talk for hours on end on one subject, and YnM happens to be one of my favorites.
A golf clap is when you use your fingers to pat the palm of one of your hands lightly, making little to know sound. |
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| pyro_o |
Ohh. I get it!! =D
Sweetness. Golf claps. O.o |
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| admin |
Whispers of a Ghost is entitled to her own opinoun and shouldn't be worried that people are gonna tear her throt out simply because she doesn't like Tsubaki.
Anyway I would tend to disagree with the statement about the age of YnM fans. I would say the program is aimed at teens but a large variety of ages usually get involved in the fandom. I think what you're talking about is the Tsusoka side of the fans, because their commonly famous for being quite young, and I agree with your point as well about the misinterpretations of Hisoka's character, like Measuring time said earlier fan girls rarely get him balanced his either brutally cold or annoyingly wimpy. But at least we agree that Hisoka's looks and combination of unfortunate luck and circumstances attribute to the fic's that put him in the latter catergory. And whispers of a ghost also makes a good point about the importance of expierence when it comes to fanfic writting. Though I don't think romantic ignorance is the cause of a sloppy fic. It's usually just misunderstanding or self delusion. I have no romantic expierence whatsoever, and I at least hope I'm capable of writting a decent Tsusoka fanfic. ~Coco |
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| Veleda |
I'm certainly not going to rip out your throat, and I wouldn't say that anyone has to like a character, but I hope you won't mind if I debate (in a friendly manner) a few of your points. You don't have to change your mind, but it may or may not give you something to think about. Tsubaki used Hisoka yes, but as I mentioned in my earlier post, he also used her. Also, "like a pawn" brings images of cold, calculating manipulation to mind, which I just don't think happened. They were two scarred, lonely kids, and they latched on to something they needed, something they thought the other person could give them. I think she did hurt Hisoka--she made it clear that he lost to Muraki, after all--but I think she helped him too. She showed him kindness, she held his scarred hand and pressed it against her cheek, she was the first to point out that Hisoka's hatred of Muraki was only hurting him. At the very end, she was trying to help him realize that he wasn't alone, that he was loved. (Plus, she was a Hisoka/Tsuzuki fan. What good taste.) As for turning a blind eye to Muraki's habits, well, he'd been brainwashing her since she was ten. He presented himself as a heavenly figure. He gave her life. Even without all the grand comparisons, there was still an enormous power imbalance. He was an adult and a doctor, she was a child and a patient. In a battle of wills between a brainwashed child and man as powerful and influential as Muraki, the poor girl never had a chance. There's a whole other factor which I hadn't considered before now concerning Tsubaki's acquiescence to Muraki: what could she have done? Stop taking the drugs he gave her? They were mixed in with her anti-rejection medication. She would have died if she didn't take them. Tell her father? Ignoring just how wild her tale sounds ("My doctor is giving me drugs to give me an alternate personality who will kill people for him"), what would he have done? He wouldn't have gone to the police, that would get him in trouble. He had already tried to get out of business, and the result of that was blackmail and eventually murder. Muraki held all the cards in that situation, and boy did he know it. Wow, I'm long-winded. |
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| admin |
I always get tongue tied explainning Tsubaki, and Veleda smacked it right on the head for me, the whole thing. It's something very difficult for people to understand, because as I said earlier the pain and motivations presented to Tsubaki's character are much more complicated to get in comparison to others. But at the core, I see a lot of good in her character.
~Coco |
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| Whispers of a Ghost |
...Wow, reading that, I guess you guys are right. Maybe she did help Hisoka, but it seems to me that, at least at the end of volume three, that it sent him into a guilt trip about leaving Tsubaki and becoming Muraki.
Then again, she didn't know about it, really. I also don't appriciate that she still talks about Muraki all sunshine and daisies after Hisoka tells her that Muraki killed him brutally. Then again, girls can do strange things when in love. Yeah, you guys are right. I just can't really connect with her, that's all. Also, I don't really know how Hisoka used her, except in hiding his true identity to go onboard, but maybe you guys are talking about something differently. Weee! This is so exciting! I'm rationally discussing things with intelligent YnM fans! 
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| Veleda |
While I don't think that killing Tsubaki makes Hisoka anything like Muraki, I do think it's something he should rightfully be concerned about. Up until that point Hisoka had been running almost entirely on hate, and running on hate is exactly what made Muraki... well, Muraki. Someone else pointed out the parallels between Muraki in the Kyoto arc ("Saki! I will kill you with my own two hands!") and Hisoka in the King of Swords arc ("I wanted revenge!" and "Am I angry that I couldn't get my revenge with my own hands? "). Hisoka certainly didn't deserve the break down he had in the helicopter, but recognizing the dangers of living on hatred was certainly helpful for him.
I actually also found myself irritated by that at first, until I thought more about it. I think that by that point Tsubaki had given up on ever not loving Muraki. The girl had two friends her entire life, and Muraki killed both of them. It would make sense for her to stop loving him after he told her he killed Eileen, but she couldn't. By killing Eileen, and then painting her father as an enemy (he made it clear that her father didn't want her to know the truth), he ensured that he would be Tsubaki's only support. In a similar way to the way an abused child loves their abuser, she felt she had no choice but to love him. Do I wish that finding out that Muraki killed Hisoka would have been enough to shake Tsubaki out of some of her delusions? Oh hell yes. Do I condemn her for not managing it? No.
At this point, we go more into inference and personal opinion on my part. I believe that Hisoka wanted a normal relationship just as much as Tsubaki did and that he latched on to her in the same way she latched on to him. He didn't hurt her in the same way she hurt him (though she did so inadvertently), but his motivation was similar. I go more into detail on this on the first post that I made.
The excitement is mutual. 
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| darkmoon13 |
this has given me a new insight into tsubaki. i kind of thought she was off or something for still liking muraki even after all the things she found out. Hisoka is a tough charachter to right for but then again all of them are. they are all complex characters. and they all seem to have a mask to hide themselves. hisoka his coldness, tsuzuki his childishness, watari his genkiness, and tatsumi i haven't quite figured out. and there is some questions that have been bothering me for some time. What is a mary sue fic? and what does occ stand for? i see that alot and i don't know what that is. | ||||||||
| Whispers of a Ghost |
You have given me a new insight on Tsubaki, Veleda. I guess that's what makes her such an interesting character: she's flawed and imperfect, just like a normal human being.
Also, I like the thought that Hisoka killing Tsubaki sort of made him realize what the hate for Muraki was doing to him. It actually makes a lot of sense, and gives me a whole new light on the situation. In fact, that's one of the things that drew me to Yami no Matsuei in the first place. All of the characters are SO human. They don't have personality stereotypes (coughgravitationcough), well, they do when you first look at them. But when you get deep down into their psyches, they're all astronomically complex. Even simple, one-timer characters like Hijiri, Tsubaki, and characters that don't get much development like Watari have such interesting personalities. Anyway, I'm rambling again, I do that a lot. Sowwy. darkmoon13: Yes, this forum is so far turning out to be very interesting.
It's interesting the masks that the characters wear all of the time. Unfortunately, people often see these shallow masks as the YnM character's true personalities. In fanfic, we see a lot of this, Tsuzuki being a five-year-old stomach, Hisoka being a cold teenaged bitch, Tatsumi being a money-grubbing pencil pusher, and Watari being a 'genki' airhead. It's quite sad, actually. Before moving on, a Mary Sue is a perfect female character, and OOC ness is "out of character"-ness. ANYWAYS, ONTO MORE CHARACTERS!! What are the posters' thoughts on Tatsumi. Should he be hated, consoled, or should he just pull the stick out of his bum? I've rambled enough, so I'll post my opinions later, but I'd like to know what other people think about this character that gives me such strange feelings of hate and admiration at the same time. |
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| admin |
It's good to have Veleda on board for me I've been trying to explain the appeal of Tsubaki's character for ages but I can't get the words out right, Veleda did it perfectly turning something hard to understand and explain into well rounded words. Thank you very much. Would I be able to post your responses on Tsubaki's character up on my site with credit to you.
I like Tatsumi, I haven't seen much hate for Tatsumi to defend because I don't think his as big as other characters. ~Coco |
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| pyro_o |
Hey- on the contrary, coco-chan; there's plenty of Tatsumi haters in the world.
Yes. It's sad, but personally, I love the guy. Not as much as Jaechunhominsu, but hey~ Tatsumi is an excellent supporting character; even if he as some air of foreboding sometimes, he actually puts in a lot for the series, I think. Think back to the times when Tatsumi looked so cold and forbidding- but later, he shows real affection for Tsuzuki, and later, ever Hisoka. He also shows strong emotions- especially protection for the two- when Muraki messes around with them. But I think that both of them are pretty well balanced. *waves MurakixTatsumi flag discreetly* XD Veleda-san and Whispers of a Ghost-san are awesome posters!! And so long and rambly.. dang~~ Makes my short posts to shame~~ XP |
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| Veleda |
Coco, you can definitely quote me on your site. I'd feel honored. | ||||||||
| Whispers of a Ghost |
:: shifts feet uncomfortably::
Er, don't stone me for saying this, but did ANYONE think that Tatsumi was a little...well, was a bastard in book eight? I mean, fretting over the budget when Tsuzuki had gone insane and was being taken by Muraki? Telling Tsuzuki mentally that he HATED him? Whining to Tsuzuki about cutting his pay and making him write an apology letter right after Tsuzki came out of insane depression? And in other volumes, beating Tsuzuki down whenver he was depressed, treating him like he's a complete and utter moron even when Tsuzuki says something wise and smart and shows concern? I mean, am I just seeing this and taking all of this the wrong way? |
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| admin |
I find it hard to explain Tsubaki because I can't define the logic in the emotions her story and Hisoka's together move in me, but velder fine tuned everything, thank you I will put you up there very soon.
I personally really like Tatsumi's character. There are few character's I dislike in that programme because I find I can emphasize with them quite easily. On top of that I feel I can understand where Tatsumi's coming from. ~Coco |
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| Veleda |
I think Tatsumi's actions in book eight can be seen as an attempt to regain normalcy. The world has been turned on its head, everything is wrong, and Tatsumi's trying to make order from the chaos. He's trying to make everything normal again. It's sort of like:
EVERYTHING IS FINE! EVERYTHING IS NORMAL! SEE, I'M WORRYING ABOUT THE BUDGET! SEE, I'M YELLING AT TSUZUKI! EVERYTHING IS AS IT SHOULD BE! It's not a good reaction, it's definitely not healthy, but... that's what I think the reason is. Of course, one could also postulate that Matsushita is a flake who can't keep her characters consistent. But I prefer my idea. |
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| pervy_princess84 |
[quote="admin"]Strangely enough the complaint I see with Hisoka is not a hatred of his coldness but in fact something quite opposite. That Hisoka is in fact a weak whiny damsil in distress character who is self-pitying fake-cute and pathetic which is so bizzare since there's little evidence of this in the show.
I always imagined that these people are envious of Yoko's concentration of Hisoka's relationship with Tsuzuki because they want Tsuzuki wih Muraki or Tatsumi or some other character, and so imagine all these fictional attributes based on Hisoka's bad luck and soft fair look. I'm just guessing, because I defintely see that kind of Hisoka bashing all over the internet and it doesn't upset me as much as it simply reeeally baffles me. ~Coco[/quote] I'm not much of a Hisoka fan, but I do not consider him a "weak whiny damsil in distress" at all. Tsuzuki's more of that, but that's just my opinion. Back to Hisoka, whiny, yes, when others treat him like a kid when he sometimes DOES act like one. I was also a little irked at the "these people" part. I'll admit, I WAS once a Tsusoka fan, but I got bored with the pair and thought of the MurakixTsuzuki or TatsumixTsuzuki as a little better and there ARE good fanfics about them, they're just either in [i]slow [/i] progress or worse, left undone.  Now, where was I? Oh yes. It's not envy, just annoyance of the pair would be a little more correct, in my opinion. Everytime I go to FF.net on Yami, I mostly see TsuSoka based fics and it annoys me that there isn't enough of the pair(s) that I like. 
I really hope I'm not offending anyone, though. This forum IS supposed to be a place to have some fun, right? I just wanted to get my opinion off my chest. |
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| Veleda |
Does Hisoka act like a kid sometimes? Yep, he sure does. He is a kid. He's sixteen at the start and roughly eighteen at the end of the Kyoto arc. It's no surprise that he would act like a teenager occasionally. Plus, there's the fact that he was denied a normal maturation process. Childhood is incredibly important time for development, but Hisoka was never taught or given any of the skills he would need to grow up. Early adolescence is also really important. Hisoka spent his in agonizing pain that no one could explain. No wonder the kid's a little screwed up.
As for the whining... that accusation will always confuse me. Hisoka doesn't whine. He rages, he fumes. I can, however, think of two times in the manga where he becomes depressed. 1. The hot springs chapter. He thinks about the fact that his body will be sixteen forever. He will never get a chance to grow up. All the possibilities that he could have had in life were torn away from him all due to the whim of a madman. He worries that no one will ever take him seriously, and that he will never be able to move past his own weakness. 2. The new years chapter. He remembers that his family neither wanted nor loved him. They didn't care about him as a person in any way shape or form. They only wanted him to exist as their perfect doll. Thinking about those things isn't whining. He's trying to deal with the enormous pain that he's been forced to bear. Thinking about legitimate problems isn't whining. Ironically, Tsuzuki spends a lot more time angsting than Hisoka does, but I've never heard anyone accuse him of whining. |
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| admin |
To Pervy_Princess84
Sorry to cause distress with the 'these people' comment Pervy_Princess84 it's just often Hisoka haters spurn him because he is the strongest focus in Tsuzuki's life, and they'd really prefer Tsuzuki with someone else so they nit pick and falsify his character, not that Hisoka doesn't have flaws because of course he does. But that's just how I feel. I'm by NO means saying that people who like other pairings hate Hisoka, because I have the feeling you might have suspected that is what I meant, BELIEVE me it's not. I love the other pairings that Yami no Matsuei fans ship but I hate it when they don't ship it right. That's just my problem. TatsumixTsuzuki shippers don't do a bad job and I've seen good work for the two, but the TsuzukixMuraki pairing I think needs a bit of work, I admit I'm not a fan of it, but a good piece would easily change my mind. But if you know any good TsuxMur fic's please send me links. Anyway I still feel there's a bit of envy since the fanbase for Tsusoka in comparison to other couples is overwhelming and the strong overtones in the book probably doesn't help. But still, it's one thing to feel sad because your idea's and favourite pairings are overshadowed by a more loved one, but it's jealously when you lash out at the fans of the pair or simply hate one of the characters in the pair for this reason alone. You have not offended ANYONE Pervy_Princess84, everyone has opinions!!, how else are we going to learn otherwise ^_^. Thank you for your input it's appreciated. To Veleda I will NEVER understand where the whine self-pitying claims for Hisoka stem from, my only explanation still being his fair looks and grumpiness, maybe the fact his unlucky and suffering and trouble always finds him, I just don't know, it's all very strange considering he has a whole load of subjects to self-pity about, but he doesn't. It's almost like the people who claim this WANT Hisoka to fit this role so they can hate him for it. I have said my own few negative pieces on Tsuzuki's character who DOES angst a considerable amount, and I have also debated against a Tsuzuki hater for thinking his just unreasonably whiny, so I've been both sides of the fence for Tsuzuki and still believe Tsuzuki's flaws aren't as picked on by fans because his the lovable heroic attractive main character that many fans love to pair off. That's why he is often left alone. I mean doesn't Tsuzuki act childish too? (though I do like those moments) Oh yes I've always liked the fact Hisoka has so many teenage tendencies, it makes him human and easy to relate to, I wouldn't want Hisoka to go through the whole story acting like a victum, I like him with a bit of spunk (pardon my choice of word). ~Coco |
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| laustic |
You know Coco, I love it when Hisoka shows his spunky side as well. He may have an agasty side but he's a tough kid and won't back down from a fight, especially when it involves a loved one. | ||||||||
| suzoka |
Yes, it has seems that most Hisoka haters have a problem with Hisoka's relationship with Tsuzuki rather than his coldness. Heck I think Tatsumi is much more colder that Hisoka *no offense to Tatsumi fans^^* There just making an excuse that Hisoka is a whining damsel in distress which is soo not true. Hisoka is no damsel, even when he's afraid of Muraki (although it might not show because his anger supses it) he isn't afraid to face him when he needed to. And I completely understand why Hisoka's personality is like that, what! if you were feared and abandoned by your parent at a very young and on top of that rape by a psycopath and then drag your death for three year. I'm sure you'll be like that too! | ||||||||
| pyro_o |
Hisoka truly is the epitome of the story- or he is in my eyes.
The story may revolve around Tsuzuki, but Hisoka is also his 'counterpart' and to me, is sometimes more important the leading man himself. Hisoka is so angsty in the beginng.. well- he still is; and that embodies the overall sadness and anger in the series.. But at the same time, he was the will to protect and adore the ones he loves. =D Such complicated opposites within someone. |
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