Hetero relationships in YnM

laustic · Hetero relationships in YnM

I was reading somewhere a fan was saying how surprised he/she was with all the yaoi pairings in YnM since it's a shojo manga. Now this comment surprised me since the only hetero relationships in there aren't with the main characters unless you include Tsuzuki and Hisae. I mean there really are only Terazuma and Wakaba and Muraki and Ukyo. We have seen Terazuma getting jealous when other men around Wakaba (remember how jealous he was when Tsuzuki danced with her at the Count's party) and of course I think it's pretty obvious that Ukyo is Muraki's true love. After all, she was the only one (not Tsuzuki) who was on his mind when he was dying and I think all the evidence points to that Saki hurt her and Muraki wants revenge for that.

These two are so far the only hetero pairings in the manga and neither have a big role. We never even see Ukyo in the main manga.
I think there's more evidence of BL romance rather than hetero so it just surprises me when people try to say it shocks them to see so many yaoi pairings in YnM.

sapphiredragon

Yeah, I don't see how people can find it shocking.

After all, there are so many more male characters in YnM than there are female characters, and most of the female characters die and/or have a very minor role. Also, there is so much less about the relationships between any female and any male than about the relationships between and amongst the various male characters.

laustic

Yes, exactly. It's the male relationships that are focused on in YnM. There aren't really any female romantic interest that last more than one chapter.

kingofswords

it annoys me when people are surprised at stuff like that - I mean just because its not hard core yaoi... But it should be very obvious that its primarily a BL anime/manga

And the girls that are even genuine love interests are hardly ever in it!! Idiot people *mutters*

laustic

It is interesting that women don't play a big part in the series and there are no real female love interest for the main characters.

Jani_chan

lol I came to this thread confused. XDDD I was looking at it and thinking.... so.... Wakaba and Terazuma...? XDDD but for people to be surprised about it? OMFG READ THE BACK OF THE BOOK!!!!! XDDDDD wow there's just not enough for me to say without laughing, it'll just turn into a spam of XDs

kingofswords · Re: Hetero relationships in YnM

laustic

In the Kyoto arc Muraki said that Saki hurt the one he loves and from everything I know about Muraki's feelings for her I think that its probably her that was hurt. In the King of Swords arc Tsubaki mentioned to Hisoka that Muraki had a childhood sweetheart so I think that Muraki knew Ukyo for a long time.

The thing is we don't really know who was it that Saki hurt. To me, it's obvious that it's Ukyo. But since we're never given a name it could be anyone, so I could be wrong.

Chazmy

This is a very confusing topic in itself really. both the anime and the manga have different views on the relationships where as Ukyou and Muraki go. In the manga she is absoultly involved with Muraki and they are mentioned as child-hood sweethearts. My interpetation of Muraki's relationship is he does love her, yes. But in Kyoto at his death i believe he was more calling out to Ukyou in saying * sorry* because he could not save her, you see Ukyou is sick from what i recalled in the side story starring her and Oriya. { but I could be wrong}

As for the anime she was not even mentioned. there was no Ukyou to exist. So there we could only interupted him as a man to man kind of guy. {So confusing and yet we are talking about Muraki here!}

I don't believe Muraki to be straight, but a man, who if he finds you interesting enough. He will do what he must to get you, hence Tsuzuki!!

muraki in a man of both worlds { bi }

laustic

Matsushita did say that Muraki's interested in both sexes so he'll go for whatever person he finds hot. His current eyecandy is Tsuzuki so who knows who the next person will be Wink

Chazmy

Personally i think it will always be Tsuzuki, only because Tsuzuki is the exception in Muraki's life!

laustic

Ukyou seems to be pretty important to Muraki and from what I understand, at least from the manga, she's the reason why he wants to kill Saki with his own hands.

Btw Chazmy, I love your Critical Memory Error Smile

It's cute.

Chazmy

Thank you

{ see you can clearly see where my mind always is }

I agree with Muraki caring very much for Ukyou, but I also believe that Muraki holds a very deep lustful passion for Tsuzuki. like a wife and mistress type thing. That dark side Muraki holds only Tsuzuki can quench.We all have it { well I know I do } desires for a certain someone. Dark hidden desires that you know your wife/husband/ boy-girlfriend just can't give you. but that one person you see, dream, even fantasize about can.

I just couldn't see Ukyou undergoing some of the dark cravings the doctors has built up. He is a sadomasochist. He finds pleasure in blood and cutting up things, a dark side I'm sure Ukyou has never seen. so that iswere Tsuzuki becomes the exception.

laustic

I have to agree with what you said about Ukyou. I don't think she knows about Muraki's dark side and I'm not sure if she would tolorate it if she did know. Muraki's a pretty obessive guy but somehow I don't think he shows that side to her.

Chazmy

^_^ exactually! I find that in Muraki's character because he known Ukyou that their relationship is very close, but Ukyou could not handle the truth of what Muraki really is. There for he leads a life of two different men.

laustic

Definitely. The impression I get is that he's a well respected doctor. Where that came from I'm not sure. Obviously he doesn't have a problem with getting people to trust him.

Chazmy

Much like the movie *American Psycho*. Muraki can play the role of good when it fits him. It's no surprize to me that, like most serial killers whether insane or not can lead a double life. Muraki is a good example of that.

The man has a certain charm and likinss about him, even as a killer he tends to play it out with his victumes very smoothly.A man who knows what he wants , when he wants it and not afriad to get it. A force to be recken with.

If you ever seen Basic Instinct.

Quote from movie : A brutal murder. A brilliant killer. A cop who can't resist the danger.

Catherine Tramell was a very attractive and charming woman. But we all knew she was the killer. So did the cop, Nick Curran. But still he came { literally }

In my belief and {I am probably getting way off the subject here } but I believe that this scenero plays a large part to the relationship Tsuzuki and Muraki have. All we would have to do to make it plausible is change the word cop to shinigami.

I'm sorry i must be rambling again.

To put it simple, Muraki is a man leading different lives. But then again, it is also clued that Muraki might not even be human. So I assume only one can guess what truely Muraki is. What kind of life he leads and perfers.

laustic

Muraki is a smooth talker and he's good looking so it must be pretty easy for him to lure people in without even having to try. Tsubaki fell in love with him because she saw him as her angelic savior. By the time she realized what kind of person he really is it's too late. She's far too deep in love with him. He certainly seems to be the kind of guy that once you get hooked into it's nearly impossible to get loose from.

Chazmy

which is in a good point, from a topic I had a debate in a while ago, about if a person could possibily fall in love with a serial killer? The fact is that it could happen.

but again I am off the subject.

Indeed Muraki is smooth and charming. Even being in a profession of a doctor gives him respect. That alone makes him a very powerful and dangerous man. I would love to learn more about his past.

laustic

I love to know how he met Ukyo and Oriya. I know he knew them since childhood but how did they meet? Oriya, from what I understand, is friends with Ukyo. Oriya runs a brothel that has been in his family for generations, but it's in Kyoto. Did the three of them meet in Tokyo or Kyoto? So many questions.

Chazmy

sorry for the long wait on responding. My computer crashed and I had to wait to get it fixed. YAY! I'm back.

I am also very interested in Muraki's past and how he met both Oriya and Ukyou.

Have you ever read the side story of Oriya/Ukyou? I know they have two that were published by Hana to Yume spring 2005 and winter 2006 , Hakusensha.

I have the website if you are interested in downloading the english translated versions.

http://lyrebird.aithine.org/oriyaukyou/

{ All credit goes to *lyerbird* for the translations and downloads }

laustic

Yeah, I downloaded this before and it certainly was interesting to read about these two characters that are so important to Muraki.

Chazmy

I find it also intriguing that Muraki's body was found in the winter special of the Oriya and Ukyou. Does this mean that Yoko Matsushita hasn't givin up on our doctor yet and that possibly in the very far future we will see more on him { I as a very big fan hopes so ^_^ }

Part of me wishes she would contuine with more of the story, that other part says i hope she just let's it be so that us fans can interpet her story into what ever our crazy little minds conjour up.

laustic

Muraki's definitely not dead. After all, Hisoka did feel him being pulled out from the fire by an evil force.

Maybe I (or someone else) said this before, but did you all notice that any potential female love interest always die? If Matsushita didn't mean for this manga to have homoerotic undertones then why not give the boys a love interest? Not that I would want them to (dammit, Tsuzuki and Hisoka belong together!), but still.

Chazmy

Oh there is no doubt about Yami No Matsuei being homoerotic .What I think she did was set her story to see erotic interests in most if not all the characters, espeically with her main character 'Tsuzuki'.

Whether it be Tsuzuki/Muraki, Muraki/Oriya, Muraki/Hisoka, Tsuzuki/Hisoka, Tsuzuki/Tatsumi, Tsuzuki/Lord Enma, Tsuzuki /The Count, even if you really look into it Tsuzuki/Watari, Tatsumi/Watari, Tatsumi/Hisoka.

I really don't think she wanted to set a love interest with just any character. But have us assume that there is more gong on then just friends and enemies.

It seems to me that Yoko Matsushita wanted to give her readers an open air on what we want to see with our minds. For example. the possiblities of pairings. The illusion that any of them are possible.

[why not have the whole entire Yami No Matsuei universe get into a big origy and just be done with it ]^_^

laustic

YnM is a shojo series, but sometimes I wonder if it really is. I keep hearing different things about what is defined as shojo, for example I heard that it's aimed mostly for girls, but then other times I heard it can be enjoyed by both male and female (I have to lean towards more this explanation). If you go into any book store in Japan and you'll find YnM in the shojo section, but it doesn't seem to follow alot of the same formulas of other shojo series.

Also, I've read that BL is considered to be a sort of sub category of shojo. Does anyone know if this is really true?

Hmm, I think this is a bit off topic.

Veleda

Shoujo is definitely aimed at girls (that's what the word "shoujo" means), but there's no law saying that guys can't enjoy it.

YnM is a very shoujo manga, really. (And the person who was surprised by the fact that YnM had homoeroticism in considering it's shoujo? Clearly hasn't read very much shoujo. There's homoeroticism all over the place in shoujo (Loveless, Petshop of Horrors, nearly anything by Clamp).

Oh, and you're right about BL being a subset of Shoujo. Both BL and yaoi are aimed at women. There's an entirely different genre of manga written for gay men. I don't think any has been translated into English, which disappoints me. I'd like to read it. And I really wish there was more yuri geared towards lesbians.

laustic

Kaori Yuki's work is shoujo and her stuff is filled with homoeroticism so I guess it shouldn't be a surprise that shoujo is filled with it. On another forum there's a thread about shoujo and people keep saying that they don't like it because it always has the same sterotypical lead female character that they find annoying. Maybe I haven't read alot of shoujo manga because I haven't come across many female leads.

Chazmy

There are some good ones out there. I don't know if you are familiar with these but I’ll write them down anyway. They have female leads and a really good plot line.

Fruit Basket

and

Yamato Nadeshiko Shichi Henge

just to name a couple.

laustic

Thanks! I've heard of Fruit Basket, but not the other one. I'll have to check these out sometime. After I'm done with the yaoi manga I want, of course!

Chazmy

Your welcome. If I come up with anymore I'll bring them to your attention. Very Happy

Editor

I WILL POST DAMMIT, AND THIS FORUM WILL LIKE IT!!

Really?? There's tons of female leads in Shojo,

Sakura-card captor sakura,

Sakura wars

Uh-Sailor Moon

Fruits Basket <3

My HiME
Utena <3
And so on, can't think of any more, but there's pleanty.

And though Utena (the movie I'm thinking of here) is shojo I guess you could say it's geared a little towards lesibians, but I don't know much about the shojo-ai and yuri worlds, I imagined that the former would be geared towards girls, gay and straight and the latter more towards guys.

Back on topic

The yami no matsuei anime is actually very shojo, there's hints, yes but they're not major and I think the overall vibe is quite family-like between the shimigami, Hisoka and Tsuzuki included, for there to be yaoi you would have to interpret it that way which involves reading into as oppose to simply reading what you see. Probably the only real yaoi action we get is from Muraki and I'm not exactly sure how much a sadistic sociopathtic raping murderer is able to represent the world yaoi and boy love, so personally myself I don't find it all that surprising that others find the bl in it all that surprising, especially if they pick up the manga, since I'm sorry to say, is not shojo in the least, the YnM manga is aaaall shonen-nai, no matter how much Yoko might try to hide it or dress it up, though saying that hints of yaoi are found all over shojo and shonen since fangirls make a massive audience. Saying that a large amount of one sex in any programme will have homoerotic vibes, but may not always necessarilly be aiming to convey homosexual situations or relationships. It just happens I guess.

With Muraki and Tsuzuki I've always seen Muraki's feelings as not being exclusively lustful towards Tsuzuki. I imagine that he finds Tsuzuki's body to very attractive yes, and that he feels a link with Tsuzuki since they're both Descendents of Darkness, but to me he's fascination with Tsuzuki's body stems from it being the medical idle, remember in book 1 we see that Muraki's loss of faith in the resilience of the human body also lends a hand to he's eventual insanity, he couldn't deal with the mortality of he's patients, but Tsuzuki's body when alive was almost practically immortal, the idle that he desired and wanted he's patients so desperately to have, and to make matters even better for the doctor, Tsuzuki's body even ends up being the eventual key to getting he's revenge on Saki, to me Muraki's "lust" is really the excitement felt at what Tsuzuki can do for him, also imagine, he's grown up with Tsuzuki--he's had that sad picture of the man for years and years--so that would also lend itself to the excitement of finally meeting and getting he's hands on him. Remember how ANGRY he was on their date when Tsuzuki wasn't paying attention to him talk about he's dolls, well how miffed would you be if after eons of waiting in anticipation to meet someone, you finally do and when you first get to spend time alone with them they don't so much as look at you.

I don't think Muraki is interested in raping Tsuzuki. He's had ample chances and we all know Tsuzuki would probably just LIE there and let him anyway, but Muraki never does anything, at the very most he might be interested in having Tsuzuki give into him, but only for the mental torture it would cause both him and Hisoka in the end. So I've never quite agreed with, I Muraki want to rape Tsuzuki because I have a weird love for him--why??--Because you get the feeling rape is saved for people Muraki doesn't like, and we know he likes Tsuzuki--if not in an entirely healthy way--then on some level. In addition to that, rape, is not Muraki's thing, he raped, ONCE, and that was NOT for lust, rape is a power crime, and Hisoka who reminds Muraki of a younger version of himself would warrant a crime like that from the doctor.

If I can get into the Mur/Tsu thread I might crosspost this here since this is a thread for discussions on hetero in YnM I'm guessing??

laustic

I never believed that Muraki raped Tsuzuki during the Kyoto arc. I think he was far too busy preparing for his experiment. Muraki is the only character we know for certain that likes both sexes. The only people Muraki ever truly cared about was Ukyo and Oriya. At least that's what I believe.

Editor

Chazmy

I honestly can see all of these as being plausible really. but I'm hard headed and find that there is an attraction there between these two characters, Muraki & Tsuzuki. Muraki would not rape Tsuzuki either. As you said he had so many chances and Tsuzuki would of let him too. But I feel Muraki is leading Tsuzuki on. He wants Tsuzuki to give into him. having Tsuzuki want him is true power in his eyes.[ though Tsuzuki will never do that because of the extreme guilt he would harbor in account of his desire ]

Editor

Chazmy

There is quite a few stories like that on this pairing really. I think one of them is called ' Cutting through Glass Tears.'

But there is so many, even one were Tsuzuki is evil. that was a good one, but the author never finished it sadly.

Editor

Chazmy

LOL! you know it just has that magnetic pole to it., the Muraki x Tsuzuki thing. XD

here's that link

Cutting through Glass Tears by HighSorceressDelial [ not finished]

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2250943/1/Cutting_Through_Glass_Tears

I have to kfind the other ones there on different sites O_o

Hetero relationships in YnM

Re: Hetero relationships in YnM