St Micheals Arc

admin · St Micheals Arc

Though a short arc it is a very significant story in Yami no Matsuei, if only for Yoko's sudden dip into all out yaoi.

Anyway I just wanna hear your thoughts regarding this arc and the characters therein.

pyro_o

I like it. Cuz it has SEX. XDDD jkjk

but really- it's actually a pretty thoughtful piece into gay Christianity.. (oxymoron. WOW.)

I've never heard of homosexual Catholics, but I'm sure they're out there~

but.. for me, the St. Michael's arc has some of the best artwork in it. ^^"

laustic

I found this to be an alright arc, its certainly not my favorite but it has its moments. What I find amazing is that people think in the scene where Tsuzuki talks about forbidden love that he was referring to Tatsumi. Where did they get that crazy idea! I think it makes a lot more sense that he's referring to the person he mentioned in the 2nd volume. Tsuzuki said with that person it was as if they shared the same soul and they couldn't be apart. Anyway, sorry for the rant but really, the only reason why people are so fond of this arc is because of the sex scene. I preferred the first two arcs in volume 4 but as I said I thought it was okay and it had some rather humorus moments. What I was rather fond of was the last pic of Hisoka in that arc. He just simply looked beautiful and the concern he had for Tsuzuki was just touching.

measuring time

(I've never heard of homosexual Catholics, but I'm sure they're out there~)

Never? I must say! They're not too difficult to find. I happen to know a handful of homosexual Catholics. In fact, my best friend of eleven years happened to be a Catholic growing up, despite the fact he was, indeed, a homosexual. I'm also quite certain his first boyfriend was a devout Catholic.

In fact, here's an entire site just for them:
Dignity USA.

There are quite a lot of other subjects I could bring up into this to say, in the technical sense, it is debatably not much of an oxymoron at all, judging by the actual historical value, but my particular opinions on this small piece of Catholicism does not belong in this topic.

However, in terms of this particular arc, I also find that was not a particular favorite of mine. Yes, the actual exploration of this topic is quite fascinating, though. It does happen, homosexuality in Catholicism. (I do not believe I even have to set an example, here. Look at the news, recently.) I enjoyed the fact that it explored a "taboo", but outside of this, I found no strong fondness of this actual arc.

I just must concur, I think most enjoy it for the sexual content. I do think this could have been explored much more profoundly.

Veleda

(I would like to note that I also know a gay Catholic.)

I'm really fond of this arc. This is probably largely because of Kira. I love Kira. Kira rules.

I also like the fact that Hisoka gets to protect Tsuzuki this time around. (Tsuzuki's about to be blasted, but Hisoka jumps in and sets up a barrier.)

Another thing I thought was cool was it gave us a sense of continuity. The Saint Michael's arc is the direct fall out from the Devil's Trill arc.

pyro_o

^^v

I love Kira. She is such a powerful character~~

There is Tsusoka in here. It is so strong that Saatanganus chokes on it~~ Because of crazy fangirls like me.

Hahah.. Just kidding. I'm just spamming in this post, cuz just saying 'Oh, yeah. Kira is cool' is weird. XP

admin

Veleda brings up a point in a rant I never aired, but Hisoka doesn't get enough Knight appreciation. He protects Tsuzuki in volume 4-in a rather cool fashion I must add, when Tsuzuki can't save Hijiri from those faling rocks Hisoka jumps in and helps them both outta there. He protects Hijiri again when he pretends to be him in episode 6. He pushes Hijiri out of the way of blow from Tsuzuki taking it himself. And the whole Kyoto arc is just full of Knight Hisoka.

Anywa back on topic. I adored Kira, she is one of few, if the only one of many YnM female characters in that program we ever see in action, plus she has a sword and is sexy without having to be filled to the rim with male aimed sex appeal. Go Kira.

And yes it was nice to have a reference to earlier arc's and deal with loose ties, Yami no Matsuei usually leaves arc's untouched once they move on, not always but usually.

It's also one of the most beautifully drawn arc's. And the mature themes don't have much baring on my view of it, I was just a little startled, but soon shrugged it off. It had a school boy yaoi story feel to it though that was rather cute to watch Tsuzuki and Hisoka get mingled in with. And I enjoyed the darkness it had, especially that disturbing kiss. And characters like yamashita from the devils trill and Maeda from the St Michaels make me laugh, especially in a series that claims to be shojo despite dripping with shonen-ai and odd dips into yaoi from time to time.

It's not my favourite arc, but I like it. Altogether, book four is one of my favourite books, its brilliant!!

pyro_o

I'm.. just gonna echo what coco-chan said. XD

dude... but that is true.

(coco-chan.. make a thread for Kira~~)

Rhea-sama

I think it was really more the fact that it was an all-boy school that prompted exploration on the part of the boys.

(Teenage boys+Horny+hormones=Lots of hopping into beds together)

That also goes for all girl schools too XD

But yes, I liked the arc for the <strike>sex, drugs, and rock'n roll</strike> I mean, the sex, violence, and sheer darkness of it all.

It's up there with The Devil's Trill for my favorite storyarc x3

admin

Rhea-sama

admin

There's that myth, (that apparently hold true) about prisoners in prison as well isn't there. Girl no, men, or guy no women, so you know.....do the best with what ya got.....yep....

Jani_chan · yes yes *nods*

I see what would lead to this.

I was just reading through because I know I've missed a lot and this thread caught my attention.

The St. Michael's arc stole my heart. I thought it was amazing when the teacher revealed that he hadn't cared at all that they were teacher and student. The fact that he was able to come out and say "I love you more than I love God" was something that nearly made me cry. I often wonder about that kind of love. You know, if I'll ever experience it. It's kinda scary to think about.

Also, the same sex actions between heterosexuals is something I'm not surprised at. In today's world, the human mind is caught very easily by something that implies sex. It has always been that way. And thus, it is normal for one to think more on horemones than on other things, like morals or the gender of the one who will bring them pleasure. They're too busy thinking about what's going to happen if they agree to it. So, I really can't doubt at all that it would be common in a singular sex school.

OI, here I am attempting a serious conversation. I think I'd better go back to chatting or something, I'm WAY outta my league.

pyro_o

*nods* Jani-chan has an EXCELLENT point there. I shall praise you when I get to the chatrooms. (Gandalf. BOOM.)

But.. St Micheal's arc is so much more than the sex, I think. Much more- it kinda delves into the SPIRITUAL sense of homosexualities (if that's even a word. >_>a), and it kinda raises the question 'Why is it bad that God doesn't want you to love one of the same gender?'

Y'know.. the thing that's gotten people bashed, persecuted, martyred, etc. etc. Pederasty isn't much of a supported idea in today's society.

End. Very Happy

Rhea-sama

pyro_o

But I'm not saying that Mitani truly answered the question- it's still a debatable topic. Smile

Wasteful depends on your POV of what waste is, though. :O

admin

*chuckles slightly shaking head* don't get me started on Mitani, strange, strange, if lovable, strange man..........

Anyway I liked the fact Yoko didn't hold back and threw out the religion God homosexuality debate out there in this story. There's a lot about boundaries, crossing them, the consequences, why their there in the first place, and is their purpose there justified, can it's justification be overruled by other things, i.e love. The teacher student boundary, the religious sexuality boundary. And what about Tsuzuki's forbidden love, was there once a boundary that he may have crossed in the past that had consequences? Was it perhaps a boundary he had to confront.
Even in manga itself, I mean it was the first time YnM went from bl hints to straight cut yaoi, Yoko in a sense herself crossed a thin boundary.

pyro_o

It's an extremely debatable topic, really. The entire 'student-teacher' relationship, too. But then again, it's not like you see pedagogues near your local church or anything. XDD

Crossing boundaries is another main theme in YnM itself, no? Tsuzuki finding his inner self, Hisoka getting past his antisocial habits, and everybody just.. trying to get to where they WANT to be. It's a scary thing, and I think that the yaoi thing just totally emphasizes a change in the plot as well as the art itself.

laustic

You know, when I read Tsuzuki thinking about his forbidden love, I just got a horrible feeling and I think everyone is going to get squicked out by this but I think the forbidden love was with his siter Luka (or Ruka). I don't know why but I just have this sneaky suspicion that she's the one. Being in love with his sister would count as forbidden.
Again, there's no evidence for this, its just a horrible feeling that I have.

Veleda

I've seen fics that run with the premise that Ruka (It has to be Ruka, I would think. The Japanese langauge doesn't have an L, so unless it's a foriegn name it can't start with L. And I've seen characters in other anime named Ruka. Or maybe I'm wrong and Viz is actually right for once.) was Tsuzuki's forbidden love. It's an interesting idea.

admin

I don't get squeaked out by it at all, I've also seen the idea of Ruka being Tsuzuki's forbidden love and I don't see why not. I think there should probably be a thread on it as it's interesting to think who it's most likely to be and why. I have the feeling Yoko will never tell us though.

pyro_o

I, too, think it was his sister. I mean, why else wouldn't he just.. be so quiet about his dancing, and his cooking? Something tells me that perhaps his cooking isn't even that bad, if he'd want to make something that reminiscent of his sister.

Jani_chan · OI...I was supposed to look back at this a while ago^^;;

Pyro_o said

Rhea-sama

That's a brilliant way of putting it Jani. I never thought of Mitani like that, but it does make perfect sense. He's the failed Romantic, the Faustus who is not damned by his own desire for knowledge, but by his own perception on it.

And the second one too o:

Though I tend to see that as Shinigami sort of being like Fuuma/Kamui from "X"--they look like who you want them to. Or rather, they look like that special someone you knew that died...

Though wouldn't that be all kinds of delightfully twisted wrong if they both were engagin in that relashionship for twisted, incestuous ghosts? x3

pyro_o

There's quite a lot of discussion considering R/Luka as Tsuzuki's 'forbidden love'.

Oddly enough, I remember his sister being engaged? Hmm.. I'm not too sure. Mad

BUT.

I DO remember reading that homosexual relationships were encouraged as a way of abling population control. How awful! I'd rather see it banned, than used in such a way as that.

The X concept is really interesting, though- because everytime somebody sees me on the street, they say 'You remind me of..' or even often, they call out the person's name. It isn't pleasant, that's for sure. But the shinigami? Somehow, I doubt it.. No offense. You just don't see a lot of people with brilliant purple eyes these days. Yanno? =X

Rhea-sama

pyro_o

Ohh. I see! XD

I can see that. But Death doesn't link everybody that you see with the rational truth. Then again, rationality is something rather limited in YnM.

THUS. I concede my point? XDD

admin

They looked alike actually, not the colours and exact features but as alike as two unrelated men from different generations and times can look. She said they sounded alike, but they were probably just alike in nature or mannerism or something, a similar aura perhaps. Anyway Jani's points had me reeling, they were spectacular.

Wow. Spot on, I don't even know how to respond. Same with Mitani. *nods*

pyro_o

I guess so- after all, it's a world filled with people. You're bound to have some kind of similarities. I guess that the arc just kinda highlighted the slim chance of it actually happening- how two people who look so alike can meet.

It's incestuous, to borrow Jani's term on Tsuzuki's forbidden love. But incest is forbidden as is pedophilia, and you see that in YnM. You don't think of it, though. I don't think I've ever thought of it until I read through this topic twice.

Jani_chan

Oh wow^^;; I seem to have made some good points without realising it. I'm not sure what to say to that ^^;;

But I have a question for anyone who might wish to answer. I believe I might already know the answer, but I base many of my beliefs on the Freudian theory, so I'm probably wrong.

Okay, the question is, why would ine fall in love with a sibling in the first place? If it is morally wrong, and against God's wishes, why would it happen at all?

I'm not sure if pediphilia (is that a word?) could fall under that question as well, but that seems to have more effect nowadays seeing a younger people were married to old(er?) people all the time throughout history. So...there's my question^^;; I hope it makes sense^^;;

admin

Morality is something people made up, hasn't got anything to do with feelings and instincts I don't think. You want what you want, how you act on that desire is based on the person, and there may be restrictions on what they want too, religious restrictions, social restrictions, ethical restrictions. Again it's up to the individual in the end.

Anyway isn't there that whole theory about your relationships with the opposite sex in the future reflect the ones you have with the opposite sex when your little, so that's like mother father, brother sister. So it's likely to get sibling crushes probably, or fall for them. I have two friends that tell me all the time their brothers are hot and cool and if they weren't related to them, they'd go for it. I don't think they realise what they're saying though.

Jani_chan

lol, I see. I understand that myself, as I used to say the same thing about my own older brother. He was my hero and the only person I could trust never to let me down. He never made any promises, so how could he break them, you know? But thank you, Coco. You have confirmed what I was thinking. I'd like to hear others' opinions on this as well, it sounds like an interesting subject^^

pyro_o

I think morals are just a different LEVEL of thinking, almost. It's morals that keep us from having sexual relations from family, animals, and children. And when I say children, I mean children like the Tsuzuki-and-Hisoka age gap thing. >_>;

But it's also morals that keep our minds in turmoil, make them question whatever code of ethics we've fabricated and lived by. Screw ethics. XD

Pedophilia's big in St. Micheal's- you have a teacher-student relationship, a bond between an eternal sixteen year old and a twenty six year old stuck forever in his age. I dunno about being in his prime, though- staying dead for nearly a century won't be as cracked up as it seems to be. XP

Rhea-sama

That is a pretty big gap, but my mom's parents have a ten year age difference--my grandma actually being the older one. It does happen.

pyro_o

Yeah. Of course it does- it's a world living with people.. .so it's bound to happen. But remember that this is set in Japan; a traditionalist culture and a strict background. =X

Rhea-sama

I dunno. Look at the age difference between Hojo and Wakabayshi. I actually think that sort of thing is more prone to happen in traditionalist cultures, when you think about it really... escpecially when things like arranged marriages enter into it. So.. there you go.

laustic

Keep in mind that the age of sexual consent in Japan is 13 years old. So there's bound to be couples with rather huge gaps in ages.

pyro_o

eh. Japan's law and consenual age, I do not know. I don't call myself an expert on Japanese culture. XD

still. the age gap kinda bugs me- there's nothing like that in Korea (usually), so I've not had much experience with it. =X

Jani_chan

erm.... I wouldn't know about people being years apart in age and in love^^;; My parents were only a few months apart^^;;

Of course, I did have a girlfriend who was a minor while I was 18. I loved her lots though, so I didn't think it mattered as long as I didn't sleep with her. But her parents wanted us to break up so I wouldn't get into trouble TT-TT

I think that Hojo was just with Wakabayashi for his money, right? So that is completely different from arranged marriage.... I think..... I can't say i know much about Japanese traditions (even though I research them^^;; Wink

laustic

Yeah, I think Hojo was after his money but they weren't married. Arrange marriages do still occur in Japan today. Some of the Japanses like having arranged marriages and some don't. A couple of my students' marriages were arranged. I was rather fascinated by that since I wasn't sure if it still happened in Japanese society today.

Jani_chan

laustic

No problem. I probably should have known that arrange marriages still happen today since I've seen it alot in mangas/animes. I'm now wondering if any of the YnM gang had a fiance arranged for them, especially Hisoka and Tsuzuki. Hisoka comes from a traditional family so it wouldn't surprise to me if his parents arranged one for him after he was born. Since Tsuzuki grew up in the early 20th century it wouldn't be a such a strech if he had an arranged engagement.

Rhea-sama

Yeah but Tsuzuki's also strikes me as having come from a rather poor family. (After all, the rich would have been able to protect their son, or at least hide his abnormality as they did with Hisoka.)

laustic

I'll have to ask my students, but I'm not sure if being rich or poor would stop a family from setting up a betrothed for their child. Hisoka's parents would have ensured that he married someone who was high class of course.

pyro_o

I dunno- considering their hatred for their own child, I doubt it if they'd even let him out; marriage would be out of the question, I think. Besides, arranged marriages are somewhat premade, and the betrothed know each other, usually. But in his case, obviously there's nothing usual. I don't even know if he'd even pass on the demon to his child, thinking about it. But hey- if Hisoka was alive and breathing, he'd have no trouble attracting future spouses, yes? XD

laustic

It's true, Hisoka wouldn't have any problems getting a spouse. But would he want to? Then again, he may not have a choice in the matter.

admin

I thought the age of consent in Japan was 14-wow 13 O.o. Here there's a big debate on ages. You know with are disturbing number of teenage pregnancy. They're thinking of dropping it to 14, its currently 16. The age of smoking will go up from16 to 18. And I think there may be some other changes.

I have to add, I don't think there are religious restrictions on sibling relationships, there is with gender though (as JiHye's Sachiko knows)-and as I know for certain. As for it happening, many religions (Catholic and a girl said Islam as well) argue people with inheriant homosexual feelings are being tested by God and must overcome them.

I am Catholic and am always torn between my (very-mind you) strong humantarian belief's and the religious belief's I've been brought up with, I've also been brought up in a very fickly spiritual family as well, so I'm always a bit all over the place.

pyro_o

but 'sodomy', as Mitani so well put it, has been praciticed for ages! People ENCOURAGED it, to stop rapid population growth. (well, not know. BUT STILL. IT KINDA PROVES MY NONEXSISTENT POINT)

getting a spouse, yeah. easy. keeping the spouse.. I dunno. Oo;

Sachiko knows very well, and is missing Auyuu deeply. =)

laustic

Yeah, the age is 13 but from what I understand, nowadays, it's frowned upon for an older man to have a teenage girlfriend. Mind you, alot of them want a high school girlfriend but they would keep it private. In fact, I don't think all the Japanese realize the age of sexual consent. A couple of my students thought it was 18 but other my other students corrected them and said no, it is 13. They seemed shocked at this. I have to wonder if the age will be raised up, as I said, those who do know about it, don't look at it too kindly.

sapphiredragon

It doesn't surprise me that they didn't know it was 13 because I only recently learned that the age of consent is 16 where I live. I would have thought that it would be 18, considering how that's when we're legally considered adults and given voting rights in the US.

Anyway, the St Michael arc is my favorite arc from Yami. The concepts and ideas it presents just make me love it. Even though Matsushita-sensei may not have done all that great a job with it, the concept behind it overcomes that, as far as I'm concerned.

The idea of a love so strong that nothing else matters just warms my heart, and it really makes me sad that both of them died in the end. And then when Tsuzuki blames himself for it, and all of the questions of morality and why homosexuality would be considered a sin.

This chapter is probably the one that affected and spoke to me the most emotionally, and for that I love this arc and, overall through all of the arcs, this series.

Jani_chan

Looking through the arc again, I noticed something. Mitani was so in love with.... the student kid... *grabs the book to look up the name* ..... Izuru. Well, he's so in love with Izuru that when he sees him again, taken over by the demon, he looks past the fact that the boy is more than half torn apart and his flesh is covered in th slime from the sea. All he sees is that boy whom he loved so much, alive and talking to him, begging for him to take him to his room one more time. Sure, it was the demon, but still, how many people claim such love as to look past appearances and actually be able to mean it? That part touched my heart (even though it was kinda yuckie xp).

pyro_o

yeah. the kissing thing just.. XP

but I do get your point- that's a gorgeous display of love, no matter how forbidden it might be. Very Happy

admin

I'm seeing page 6 of 6 and the 6 at the right side of the screen here and just coming over from the triple 6 thread. So I'm.....*shudders* in the sequel to the devils trill arc thread *sweatdrop*.....

Moving on. That was the bit I noticed the most, remembers fascination with bit and constant comments and revists to that page, and having fun tramatizing my friend with it.

Poor Mitani, a man of knowledge who became an eventual slave of love.

pyro_o

oh hush iwth the 666 thing. XP

he is. it's almost beautiful, if it wasn't a 'wasteful love', as he'd put it.

laustic

Does anyone know why Kira tried to stab Hisoka? I was rereading the arc last night and I realized that I had no clue as to why she did that.

Rhea-sama

Um.. A sort of test?

No friggin' clue--probably because it was dramatic more than anything else XD

pyro_o

Kira possibly found about Hisoka through Tsuzuki. She's a mercenary of the King of Hell, and Enma himself would certainly press somethings about that guy. Perhaps she found out? Well... A boy and a guy with purple eyes.. both exuding energy- Hisoka probably more than Tsuzuki..

I think she could put two and two together? XD

laustic

I wouldn't be surprised if she found out about Hisoka through Tsuzuki, but wonder why she tried to kill him. Rhea-sama could be right about it being dramatic. I still would like to know.

Jani_chan

I have the feeling that she was trying to test him. For whatever reason she had in her mind. but something funny occured to me when I read this question. There were rumors going around the school that the boy Kira had dressed herself as was interested in th occult and put a spell on any boy more attractive than himself. I read this question and imagined Kira sneaking up to Hisoka's bed with her sword and lifting it while screaming "YOU'RE PRETTIER THAN ME!!!! D8<" with a maniacle look in her eyes. xDDDDD I'm sorry, that amused me to no end :p

Rhea-sama

laustic

Who wouldn't be jealous of Hisoka? He's so pretty Smile

Hyperaesthesia

I recently introduced my (straight, male) housemate to YnM when he wanted some art to copy. First volume I lent him? Yes *facepalm*. I remembered the first couple of stories were very innocent and cute and forgot about the fairly explicit GAY ZOMBIE CATHOLIC SCHOOLBOYS. He was a little bit troubled, but being a brave little trooper, went on to finish the anime and is working through the rest of the manga now. At least he's well prepared for the upcoming tentacle scenes Laughing

Anyway, I really like this arc for all the reasons said before. Plus, GAY ZOMBIE CATHOLIC SCHOOLBOYS Cool

Rhea-sama · "GAY ZOMBIE CATHOLIC SCHOOLBOYS"

XDDDDDDDDDDD

That is the best phrase EVER to sum up Yami no Matsuei XDD

Paurie · Reply

~Die post, DIE!~

admin · Re: Reply

sapphiredragon

I kind of have to wonder why Mitani actually killed the priest and Fujisawa. I mean, although he was partially to blame for his death and he did kind of break a bit of a taboo by having sex with a guy, and a student of his, he didn't actually do anything illegal, anything that would actually have gotten him in trouble (unless he thought the police wouldn't believe him)... until he started going around and killing people to cover up what really happened to Izuru.

Did he feel so guilty, even though no laws were broken? The worst that could've happened if he had let everyone know would've been him losing his job.

Or maybe he felt like his life was ruined and didn't care as long as more people didn't know?

I just don't know.

Paurie · Re: Reply

What... the... hell............??? I... I don't remember this post, I swear... o///////O I remember THAT... but... how the HELL did it end up here?! I'm sorry. I didn't mean to post! X/3 *deletes it, though it'll still be in this quote*

Nooooooo~! X/D I can't delete it! X///3

admin · Re: Reply

sapphiredragon

The problem is that he didn't kill Izuru. Izuru committed suicide, then Mitani told the priest about it. All of this happened before he killed Fujisawa, so the only explanation I can think of is that Mitani feared that the police wouldn't believe it had actually been suicide, like he feared that the police would have believed that it had been murder.

Or maybe Mitani just wasn't thinking clearly. *Sigh* I really don't know; it's all so difficult. I suppose that was just what Matsushita-sensei meant she talked about how bad it had turned out.

Jani_chan

Admin wrote:

laustic

It's interesting to see how the part where Fujisawa told Hisoka he was the type he liked to "bugger" was translated by Theria as "you look like the type that wants to be raped." (or something like that). I wonder which one is the closest to be correct?

Rhea-sama

Oh man. This fanfic, read it. Read it now. And then read Experimental's other St. Michael's works. (I can't believe I didn't suggest this author yet in here.)

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3478441/1/ Apologia--Set just after Izuru's death. Very interesting.

Paurie

admin

I haven't picked up the book to recheck the story, so I suppose Sapphire's confusion is plausible is if she's right. When I reread it I'll think about what may have been Yoko's intention at the time.

On a lighter note....OMG!!! I KNOOOOOW, I also thought of saionji when reading about Fujisawa as well. Ahh thanks for the name, Yamashita and Maeda could very well be related lol!! The similarities between both arc's are really very impressive.

Wow....laustic......*cough*........

@Rhea:

I'll have to read that later sadly. I've made it my promise to myself to read Experimentals work. But I haven't gotten round to it yet. I will soon. Thanks for the rec.

laustic

I have to agree that I think Theria's translation does explain Hisoka's reaction better. Considering Hisoka's history I don't blame him for reacting that way.

sapphiredragon

I looked bugger up in the dictionary once, and the meaning I found there does seem to fit.

checking it again, one of the definitions is:

to commit sodomy with.

It's just kinda confusing because it's a word not normally used. Thus, it probably wasn't the best choice for a translation, but it does fit.

laustic

That's interesting. It is a confusing word to use. When I read the word it is associated with sex, but not rape. Well, that clears things up now.

Rhea-sama

Hm true, I read it like that, but then I use/know a lot of British slang myself. It's really amusing how most Americans don't realize what an impolite word 'bugger' is.

admin

I don't know about the rest of Britain, but here it's normally used like..."bugger off" as in piss off.....so....*sweatdrop*....though I did take it to mean something similar to rape because of the context.

laustic

pyro_o

Yees, speaking of. Thank you for clearing that up (and causing a minor surge of debate as well. XD), Sappho. :DDD

Chazmy

To me this story touchings more deeper then what it shows on it's surface. It deals with the formaility of gay life. Most chruches condem gay relations.In the bible it is often sad that sodomy is a sin against god. But in reality one can not choice the path that their heart makes. So are you willing to risk your love for god and all that is rightious or become a abomination toward your givin faith. I clearly see this with in this arc.

..................

ok now my brain is shutting down I'm going to have to contiune this when I'm not half sleeping.......{ crawls to bed}

laustic

I think this arc isn't just about being gay, I think it has to do with having feelings that are supposedly wrong and forbidden. Tsuzuki, after all, says he knows how the professor felt because he, too, had a forbidden love. Now, I don't think Tsuzuki's forbidden love was a man. I can't help it, my gut instincts tell me that his sister was his forbidden love. Tsuzuki obviously knew that his love was wrong, but he still felt it and it does show that you can't help who you love.

Chazmy

True the story does involve that of forbidden love and there is so many ways something can be interpeted as forbidden, espeically under a chruch and in the name of christ. But the story did also involve that of gay love male and male affection and sodomy played a very big role in being a major sin against god.

Quote From book:

professor: Do you know why sodomy is forbidden....Father?

Tsuzuki : Hmmm...'cause it's dirty?

Professor: God has a plan for all living things. He has one for you and one for me, as well. We were all born on this earth for a purpose. We exist to bring forth new life. To beget new generations.But sodomites beget nothing. Because their love is wasteful. It is forbidden by god.

from that quote and the one after that were Tsuzuki confesses to have experienced forbidden love himself. I see the justice of it being a male because that is what the writer looked like she was going for.{ I could be wrong, though , but for the most part that is my opinon }

laustic

That's the thing though, Tsuzuki said that he understood the professor because he had a "forbidden love" but he never said if the person was male or female. In the arc about the dancer Hisae, Tsuzuki said that there was someone in his past that he was close to, that it felt like as if they shared the same soul, but all he could do was watch that person die. Later in the series, it was said that he watched his family die so it seems to me that it was a member of his own family. Well, at least that's my conclusion.

Sigh, I wish Matsushita would just get on with the story already so we can find out more about Tsuzuki's past.

Chazmy

I so have to agree with you on her getting on with the story. I would love to learn more about Tsuzuki. but then if we knew then were would be the fun in debating all these issues like this one^_^

I still am determed to say it is a male. sharing the same soul could be interpeted in so many ways as well. To share the same soul is to be that person. To experence what they have and to be close to them. Again in almost a similar scenero Hisae soul mate was her brother, but it did not mean they were intimate. If that were the case and intimacy was involved, then so was Masaki's and Ayako's because they also shared a very close love for eachother.

unfortunely we will never know. Sad

laustic

Well, I do understand why you (and many other fans) think Tsuzuki was referring to a male lover. It's very understandable because of the plot. Now, I believe the person Tsuzuki was talking about was during his lifetime and not after death. I'm curious to know what everyone else thinks. Do you think that Tsuzuki's "forbidden love" was someone he knew when he was alive or was it someone after he became a shinigami?

Chazmy

This also has me wondering if it was when he was alive or in his after life.
I could see both possiblities really.

Let me think about this one for a moment and I will get back to you on it.

{ time to bring out the books. }

laustic

I admit the very first time I read it I thought Tsuzuki was talking about Hisoka, but later that day I reread it and it hit me that he used the past tense so then I started thinking about what he said to Hisea in the second book and I came to the conclusion it was someone from when he was alive.

I look forward to your thoughts.

Chazmy

It is possible that it did happen when Tsuzuki was alive, the only thing that I question is, is he didn't have a very good child hood to start out with. I mean in both the anime and manga we can clearly see that he was young when he was chased and beaten by kids because of his eye color. There just wasn't any room for intimate love for someone who could not even find peace within himself. Love, yes. Forbidden intimate love ,no.

It didn't say he had any friend's either. It leaves a very big gap for interpetations.

I do know he was in the hospital for eight years and died at age 27, in 1927. that leave's it to say that he was 19 when he went crazy. There is were the confustion lyes. with in a period of years before this he could of found a love. But with the life that was shown from his childhood to adult, that aparently the beatens and abuse from other people did not stop.

There is the loop-hole. The what if's.

Questions arise. Did he find a love? Was it in his sister that he found love because he could not find it no were else? Yes, he did find love with his sister but it was not intimacy. It was pure love of understanding and comfort. His love of his sister was deep rooted exceptence, compassion and protection.This I only get from the understanding of Hisae and her brother love.

Was it a man in his life that he fell for? could he of really found someone to love in all that time of running and seeing himself as different, as a monster. I mean he was pretty messed up.

I am going to conclude more of this while I study the books more. I think I have a theory.

laustic

Please share your theory when you think it all out. Smile

Chazmy

In my guess as to whether Tsuzuki's forbidden love was from when he was alive or in his after death. Will always be a mystery until * Yoko Matsushita* herself decides to reveal this great ambiguity.

I am trying hard to read between the lines here but I am still getting two theories on it.

First: that it is possible he had a forbidden love before his death. Back in the early years of the 1900-1920's gay love was a taboo { forbidden }. It was not something you would have a discussion about in every day conversations. If in fact he did have a love then it being another male. We would have to assume it would have to be before he went crazy { unless in other thoeries I have came across on reading. His forbidden love was infact Muraki's grandfather, In which I highly doubt.}. Being that he spent most his life running in fear of being different, labled a monster or demon. This leads me to believe that he did not have a forbidden love until his after life.

In the beginning of his career as a * God of death* it was hell. Volume 5 in Tatsumi's exact words stated this{ I don't know at what time they became partners. But it couldn't of been to long after Tsuzuki's death.}

I don't know but somewhere in that long line of work. Someone made him change. { I don't believe it was Tatsumi...[ I can explain more on that soon] } But someone we as readers have not heard or seen yet. Tsuzuki had a long line of partners. Could it be that perhaps one of them was his forbidden love. I see this being a more logical explanation.

Though Yoko Matsushita leaves our minds boggled at what the truth really could be. Our imagination is our own keys to unlocking that special door to countless possiblities. What we come up with in discovering the mysteries that Yami No Matsuei has to often, is priceless. A never ending quest.

She gives us the opportunity to find the loop holes she had created within the story and make it our own. That is what I love about Yami No Matsuei. Just when you think you have found out the answers. You find yourself turned back around clueless and starting all over again.

[

laustic

Tsuzuki really only had his sister when he was alive so that is one of the reasons why I think it's her that is his forbidden love. Of course, you're right that it might be someone in his afterlife. I agree with you Chazmy, that Tatsumi isn't Tsuzuki's forbidden love. I don't know, to me when I read the manga and watched the anime I was given the impression that Tatsumi's feelings for Tsuzuki were clearly one-sided. I think Tsuzuki cared for Tatsumi has a dear friend while Tatsumi's feelings ran deeper.

Jani_chan

laustic

Chazmy

It is a possiblity. I could see this happening. Enma seems to me { even though they do not go into great detail about him } that he would have a deep attraction for Tsuzuki. { and again I might be going out on the deep here } but maybe that is another reason why The Count doesn't force Tsuzuki to pay back his long owned debts. You notice how Tsuzuki always seems to be getting out of them. How Tsuzuki seems to be getting away with alot of things.

Jani_chan

lol, you gave me an image, Chaz.

Not sure how it hit me. Just was reading through this thread again and it occurred to me that a lowly mortal (not so mortal anymore) in love with a god would be foridden, wouldn't it? Though, I don't know much about Japanese gods. Mostly roman and greek.

(thank you for telling me when I have good points ^^;; they al seem stupid when they come from me)

Chazmy

Chazmy

laustic

Tsuzuki was able to strongly relate to the professor because both had a forbidden love. I think this arc also strongly shows how torn apart Tsuzuki becomes when someone dies in front of him. Of course it also makes it worse because it was done to lure Tsuzuki in. I wish Matsushita would actually get into more about what happened in this arc. Ashitarote wanted to make Tsuzuki ruler of the dragons. Are we to believe that he just dropped the plan just like that? I think he wants Tsuzuki's power and I think that he would still be trying to get Tsuzuki on his side. Also, Ashitarote knows secret knowledge. He probably knows about Tsuzuki's blood line. There's so much in this arc that could be further explored in later chapters of YnM.

St Micheals Arc

yes yes *nods*

OI...I was supposed to look back at this a while ago^^;;

"GAY ZOMBIE CATHOLIC SCHOOLBOYS"

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yes yes nods