Tsuzuki and Hisoka

laustic · Tsuzuki and Hisoka

I can't believe that Hisoka and Tsuzuki don't have a thread of their own! These two have the most important relationship in the series, at least I think so. They have a bond so deep that no one could ever hope to break it and the feelings between them is obvivously mutally. I'm looking forward to the day that we'll see them have their happy ending.

Rhea-sama

I love HisokaxTsuzuki x3

And yes, it is increasingly important as the series goes on.

Though they do have issues to overcome.. Hisoka's past.. the clear power imbalance between them..trust issues. Once they smooth out over those things.. and after Hisoka gets counciling for his rape and more years pass.. they'll be all set.

...Who said love was easy? It's hard work~! XD

Hyperaesthesia

Even though it's not one of my favourite pairings, it's always seemed like the most logical one to me. They do go together very well when they're dealing with their issues earlier on- Tsuzuki's relentless nice-ness seems to finally get through to Hisoka, and in return, Hisoka gives Tsuzuki something to live for when he's gone through suicidal times. And once that's all out the way, I can see it getting stronger over time.

pyro_o

Oh, GOODNESS. Tsusoka, top(ic)-less? O.O!

Ah, well. Nice to see that they do now!! *squishes laustic*

What can I say? The ff.net forums took away my eloquence at their AMAZING stuff there- I dare you to check it out.

BUT. I can still say that they're just.. great. Tsusoka can be the best pairing there is, if you like them.

..and why is Tsusoka always putting Tsu-chan first?? Soka can be seme. Any thoughts? =O

Rhea-sama

pyro_o

I mean.. he LOVES power. More than he should, and he nearly unhealthily obsesses over it. I mean, his always angsting about never being strong enough for Tsuzuki, and his shinigami-hunting.. *shudders*

Soka = Seme.. usually. No, really. XD

Rhea-sama

Dude. HE HOLDS TSUZUKI UP WITH A FREAKING PHALLIC SYMBO--I MEAN GUN WHEN THEY MEET!!

..If that's not seme, I don't know what is. Laughing

pyro_o

Man- shoot me for not thinking about that. XDDD

laustic

Actaully, I find it more believable that Tsuzki is seme. Don't forget that he is the most powerful Shinigami there is and he contols the 12 most powerful Shiks there are. Tsuzuki only gives the illusion of weakness.
While Hisoka is stronger then he gives himself credit for but his power will never match Tsuzuki. Plus Hisoka does have a power complex that he needs to get over and by letting Tsuzuki have some contol over him would help him get over certain "issues."

Hyperaesthesia

I can't see their relative power playing much of a role in who goes on top or not. I see them as being too close to bring a power struggle into the bedroom, and they seem fairly equal in both the anime and manga in terms of who makes decisions and so on. Tsuzuki's quite amicable and lets Hisoka boss him around sometimes, and then sometimes Hisoka has to look to Tsuzuki for guidance and let him take the lead.

I suspect it could go either way. Hisoka does seem to have power/control issues, he's been raped and is probably very sexually inexperienced. Tsuzuki doesn't seem like the sort of person who would have a complex about what's going on in the bedroom and how it reflects on his masculinity/power/status/etc. In the short term, I could see it going either way, and in the long term, once their issues were worked out I think it'd be pretty equal unless one of them just happened to have a personal preference.

measuring time

I am inclined to agree with Hyperaesthesia. In all actuality, I am most able to believe that position in the bedroom would boil down to personal preference.

Then, I happen to see most relationships this way. I am an advocate of the "lover" and the "beloved," in all honesty. AP English can be useful when discussing obscure topics.

In my personal perspective, Tsuzuki and Hisoka switch this role frequently throughout the series. At first, Tsuzuki would be described as "the lover" and Hisoka, "the beloved." After the initial starting point, it flips on numerous occasions. A prime example being when Hisoka tells Tsuzuki to live for him, using such keywords as: "for me."

As proclaimed by a fair amount of humanity, it is easier to love than be loved, and no one wants to be the one who is constantly loved. So, the situation, to get back on topic, would depend heavily on what each other wanted.

That would be my two cents on this matter.

admin

measuring time

That's because most people who write this relationship make Hisoka out to be a weepy, fourteen year old girl. (Metaphorically. Yes, yes - I know Kurosaki Hisoka is sixteen when he finally succumbs to his curse.)

I find the people who have the most comprehension of the characters refuse to touch their relationship on any level deeper than, say, sleeping together without sexual connotations. Or, at the most, a very awkward sexual arousal.

However, there are various exceptions to this, do not misunderstand me. Yet, this type is severely understated in the fandom.

I find that a relationship such as theirs is horrendously mangled when intercourse is brought into the picture, as most do not seem to know how to handle them emotionally once they get their pants off. If it is done right, which is rare, they at least provide some insight as to why the positioning is as it is. I find that the ones that are done correctly feature Hisoka as the pitcher, or at least on top of him.

-shrugs-

Either that, there is a mutual understanding as to why Tsuzuki is, or there is no direct intercourse whatsoever, but more so - well, to avoid sounding crude, joint pleasuring.

I happen to find that their relationship goes far beyond the need for sexual intercourse, really. In my head, they seem to be participants in an asexual relationship. (By way of having no desire for sex, that is.)

admin

laustic

What fanfics have Hisoka as a weepy uke? I've acutually read plenty of fics that have done a wonderful job of handling the love scenes between Hisoka and Tsuzuki. I'm sorry but I just don't see them as asexual nor have I read a good (or a belivable) fic where Hisoka is the seme.

pyro_o

BUT- most of the time, you write Tsusoka, or Tsuzuki and Hisoka- just natural assumption that they have their.. ordered? places. >_>;;

but then again, it could never BE about their 'uke' or 'seme' things- like measuring time said- an 'asexual relationship', not always about the sex. =X

measuring time

(What fanfics have Hisoka as a weepy uke? I've acutually read plenty of fics that have done a wonderful job of handling the love scenes between Hisoka and Tsuzuki. I'm sorry but I just don't see them as asexual nor have I read a good (or a belivable) fic where Hisoka is the seme.)

I dare say, I must be living on the opposite end of the internet, then.
However, there are several and I am not one to go trudging through the "pit of voles" to go rustle up an example.

On the off-chance of our different viewership not being a factor, your definition of "good" must be intrinsically different from mine. Since we both seem to have a decent comprehension of the characters at hand, I am going with the first theory.

And you misunderstand me entirely. I said, "I happen to find that their relationship goes far beyond the need for sexual intercourse, really. In my head, they seem to be participants in an asexual relationship."

Unless my opinion is absolute fact, I am confused as to where you interperted it as such.

Again, a matter of the "different sides of the internet."
You might have read various, terrible fanfictions with Hisoka being that of the pitcher, but I have read an extreme multitude where they have made Hisoka out to be weepy, ill-developed, bottom. (Come now, I think it was you and I who had a discussion going that featured Hisoka's defense! I have difficulty believing you have never witnessed it.)

And in all honesty, I think most writers when it comes to this fandom has an odd amount of difficulty getting most of anything done correctly when it comes to intercourse in relation to these two. I just think the whole idea is hideously out of character for a variety of reasons. However that is just my opinion.

(but then again, it could never BE about their 'uke' or 'seme' things- like measuring time said- an 'asexual relationship', not always about the sex. =X)

Ah, good. I was beginning to believe I was going to be completely misunderstood. Haha. <3

Yes, but that's just the way I look at things. Everyone is entitled to their opinions et all.

laustic

I don't know if it's assumption that I have about their "placement." I just try to write love scenes that I find beautiful and just right for them. But then, you also have to understand that I'm a firm believer that their relationship would have a darkness and maybe even a little possessivness to it. Tsuzuki has a dark side, we have seen this in the anime and the manga. Tsuzuki fears this side of him even though he doesn't quite remember everything from his past.

admin

Veleda

All right, there's a lot for me to cover here. I hope I don't forget anything.

I agree with Rhea-sama's first post. Hisoka being the seme the majority (but not vast majority) of the time, and more so in the beginning.

laustic

Okay, I keep noticing that everyone here keeps missing my point entirely. Tsuzuki does have a dark side because it is human nature. We all have it. Also keep in mind that there is a reason why Tsuzuki is working as a Shinigami. Enma himself even said that Hell was where Tsuzuki belonged. Why would he say that?

Anyway, this is the last time I'm writing anything about this subject. I started this thread so that Tsuzuki/Hisoka fans can rave about the greatness of this pairing but that has yet to happen.

admin

measuring time

(Anyway, this is the last time I'm writing anything about this subject. I started this thread so that Tsuzuki/Hisoka fans can rave about the greatness of this pairing but that has yet to happen.)

Like Coco mentioned, we have read on very different sides of the internet. I find no reason to be touchy over the subject matter of two, very well drawn characters. I am just declaring my stance on the matter as another reader, anyone who has decent comprehension of characterization will display this, unless they happen to be spineless. Agreeing to disagree is better than dashing out of the thread because you happened not to take into account an opposing opinion.

It seems inane to me that someone like you would back out when you have something valid to say. It disappoints me a little.

I'm just sharing my love of the fandom in a different manner, is all.

laustic

I'm not posting anymore because I feel that my opinons are not being respected. Why keep posting when I keep getting ganged up on for such opinons that Tsuzuki has a dark side? I also don't appreciate being told I'm a coward for dashing out just because I don't agree with other views. That's not it at all. I respect other's views, they just don't seem to respect mine.

measuring time

(I also don't appreciate being told I'm a coward for dashing out just because I don't agree with other views.)

Listen, I don't want to start a petty argument, I'm just saying that I valued your opinions and that I'm disappointed that you seemed to have let my opposing ones offend you. That's about it, really. If I wanted to say you were a coward, which the word "inane" implies nothing of the sort, I would have said:
"You're a coward."

At the moment, you are placing down words that do not exist.

And I read nothing that seems to disrespect your opinions, which baffles me as to why you would claim such a thing. It may be just my way of viewing, but I do not see a reason to let your blood boil over something you may have incorrectly read into.

Also, I see no one "ganging up on you." That's completely falsified. They're just sharing their opinions like you were sharing yours and they have valid reasons for having some opposition to it.

Urgh.

Veleda

I adore Tsuzuki/Hisoka. If I didn't love it, I wouldn't be so intent to discuss it.

I think I did misunderstand your point about Tsuzuki's dark side. Usually when I hear that term, people are referring to some part of Tsuzuki that they think is secretly evil.

I enjoy discussing these things. Did you feel my reply was confrontational? I tried hard to avoid that. I like animated discussion, not fighting.

laustic

measuring time, that very post you just made is an attack. If you don't consider that an attack then I don't know what one is. I'm all for hearing people's views and respect them for it. If someone doesn't agree with my view then that's fine just don't disrespect my opinion.

measuring time

(measuring time, that very post you just made is an attack. If you don't consider that an attack then I don't know what one is. I'm all for hearing people's views and respect them for it. If someone doesn't agree with my view then that's fine just don't disrespect my opinion.)

It wasn't intended to be.

Was it the quotations? If so, I was using a direct quote from you and that was why there were quotes. Blame my AP English class. Hahaha. <3

I think we have honestly just come upon a misunderstanding; I may have been defensive of others based upon your reactions, but I believe I had some validation and I was a little perplexed as to why you would let something that didn't seem to exist get to you.

However, yes, my tone is sharp. However, this is the tone I was born with. I have had people already think I was angry with them or think that I just attacked them, even though I honestly meant to do nothing of the sort.

Also, if I was attacking you, there would have been artful metaphors comparing you to unsavory objects, which I did nothing of the sort. No, really. If I was attacking you, it would have definitely involved some form of vulgarity.

I was explaining my previous post, the "urgh" was for exasperation for not comprehending what it was that could possibly be bothering you. I put that in the nicest way possible. I think that maybe you're being overtly sensitive? I honestly fail to see how my last post was even remotely offensive, unless it was read to be so.

Also, I have never, ever disrespected your opinion. That was an unwarranted claim and a little under the belt. I told you how I felt and I told you I thought you were putting words in my mouth. That was unjust and I expressed it as such.

I was expressing my confusion. I take it you may have read it when your emotions were still in a flurry and this is not to undermine your character, but I honestly think you are over-reacting to something that was potentially truthful instead of malicious. This is not to say that my tone is once again doing me in, which in that case, I understand this a bit more.

So, before you feel you absolutely must continue this, please reconsider. I really do not want to taint my stay here nor do I want to argue with you as I previously stated, however you seem to be trying to coax me into one, which I am certainly displeased with.

laustic

I believe I have valid reasons for feeling the way I do although you seem to think I'm in the wrong. I disagree with that, however, since this doesn't seem like it'll ever end and I don't what you to feel tainted here, I'm simply going to leave this forum.

measuring time

(I believe I have valid reasons for feeling the way I do although you seem to think I'm in the wrong. I disagree with that, however, since this doesn't seem like it'll ever end and I don't what you to feel tainted here, I'm simply going to leave this forum.)

I never said you were wrong, I just said I happen to disagree.
I would be more apt to agree to disagree at the moment, but I believe it will end if we just came to a stand still on it, your leaving is unecessary and I never wanted you to.

That really doesn't solve anything, I was confused in the first place because you had such wonderful opinions and you seemed like you were someone that could uphold a good debate. I am disappointed that my initial judge of character was so dramatically off base.

Frankly, my last post was a peace offering and a hope you at least understood what it was I was trying to say in layman's terms. I am sorry you feel it essential to leave, but like I said, I never wanted you to.

I did not say you specifically were tainting my stay here, I just said I didn't want to "taint" my stay here with bickering that seemed insignificant. Frankly, like I said, I respected your opinions and I was disappointed. That was all there was to it.

pyro_o

*clutches head* Oh, wow. So much going on- and I can't believe that I totally missed this.

I don't suppose that it's the correct time to orate about such subjects- but then again.. *shrugs*

Let's see... I think that this couple really has more relationships that we consider.

Yeah, we know that they're the MAIN couple of YnM (debatably, with TaTari..), and also that they're the ONLY couple that's been so freely discussed here, I think.

But don't forget- TsuSoka isn't always what Matsushita-sensei makes, but what we make of it. As fanfic-writers, fanartists, fans, the audience, whatever- it's our take that gets this forum moving.

We can picture them as sweet, fluffy work partners, or wild, wanton sex buddies- whichever you like. But that's really our own individual points of this, no?

I'll leave this open-ended, for the sake of this thread...

admin

I would have preferred to have been here for laustic and Adrian's debate, or if it had been taken to the pm's instead. Its obviously been a terrible misunderstanding between two contrasting readings on language. And I already said not to get too bugged down with exactly how something is said and technicalities, because I know from expierence that often brings on misunderstandings like this.

I do hope that laustic returns because I've know her possibly longer than anyone here, and I know she has some good points to add about the couple from hearing some of them. So I'll just wait for her, the door is always open here, it's the first Tsusoka topic we've had here, and we really needed one, and none of us has posted one until now which is terrible. So I'll continue on the debate, until the creator of the topic returns.

Anway, if I'm gonna make a comment or two about fanfic's, where are you people going to look for them @__@. Seriously O.o, when I defend characters, it's from rants and forums I've seen, maybe the odd poor fanfic, but I rarely find such terrible ones. Maybe I've gained some skill from several years in the Final Fantasy fandom, and there is a hellvua lot of crap in the fanfiction there. But it's like very simple.
What you do, is you find a really good fic, just look and you will evenually find one promise, if the author is well known, they will invetiably, or usually have what I like to call hang outs, or "friends", a small group their often or always affiliated with, look through that group and read their works, and you'll find that their works are on the same level or better than the talented writer you found.
Still want more?
Okay just think-each and every one of those hang outs might have a site where they have their own group of hang outs, so it's simple, just go through their works and you are likely to find quality, (you've probably been through hundreds of good fic's by now by the way) they may also have lists of their favourite stories and authors, guess what, you'll find that their favourites will be just as good, as good writers don't usually tend to like crap stories. AND I haven't even gone into links and rec's yet. I mean, just look up rec's. I for example and people like me will sit down for hours on end finding links and reviewing them just so other people don't have to work so hard wading through the crap, and yet still I find people telling me they keeping stumbling into pit loads of poor fanfiction on a couple or pairing, I don't understand it, I can tell there must be pleanty out there based on some of the rants I've read. But their not difficult to avoid. Unless most people are fanfic finding rookies or something =/

Anyway, now that's out of my system, I woud like to continue aspects of the seme uke debate since it's so interesting and throw out a question to you whilst I'm at it, also don't ignore the fic rant above as well if you want to comment on it also.

On the seme uke deabate, I also find a lot of idealism and realism clashing. A lot of the smarter people who prefer Tsuzuki as seme, like the idea of Hisoka who is always pushing people away and trying to be powerful finally just being able to feel content and allowing Tsuzuki to help him overcome his problems without feeling weak. And Tsuzuki to be more open without feeling guilt. The only problem with this notion I think is that as deep and wonderful as it is, it might be too idealistic the first time round, Tsuzuki being too open or Hisoka in the role as uke. A rape victum would find it too much, especially being an empath. I'm a bit awkard about sex and such and even I find the idea of doing it and being in an uke roll and all that too much. Putting idealism and romanticism aside, realistically its more likely first time round Hisoka would be seme and Tsuzuki as uke.

I don't think all stories that have Hisoka topped first time round are all bad, not at all, and all in all it shouldn't be too much of an issue as long as the fanfic is good and the sex scene is handled as well as it can be in the context of things. I mean its strange how big this topic is, I remember reading that some people actually review stories and ignore how good the story is and simply ramp on about who topped who, whats the point of that O.o.......

Anyway, I wanted to also ask you about Tatzuki in relation to Tsusoka, because it's a point that I think is important in a way as well.

Let's go into an AR world, do you think Hisoka would have been able to handle Tsuzuki if he met him the same time Tatsumi did. I mean, would they would have been so close under such different circumstances?

laustic

I think that if Hisoka met Tsuzuki around the same time Tatsumi did, I think he still would have been able to handle him. Tsuzuki reminded Tatsumi of his mother and that did take a toll on him. Tatsumi's also reserved to such a high degree, not even Hisoka is that bad. While Tatsumi does know Tsuzuki, he doesn't understand him on the level that Hisoka does. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think that Tatsumi was outcasted by family and society as Hisoka and Tsuzuki were so he can't possibly truly understand Tsuzuki. Hisoka was in the same boat as Tsuzuki so he would have been able to handle him. If Hisoka and Tsuzuki met earlier in life I think Tsuzuki wouldn't be having the problems he's having now.

admin

Veleda

Coco, everythinh you've said about Hisoka, Tatsumi, and Tsuzuki is so very true. That's actally why, while Hisoka/Tsuzuki is my favorite pairing, I also really love Tatsumi/Hisoka/Tsuzuki. I'll have to post the fic about them I wrote just yesterday.

I think another thing you've illustrated is how a lot of us huge Hisoka/Tsuzuki fans tend to forget just how many problems and pitfalls the relationship runs into. I know I do. But, of course, the reason I love the pairing so much is because I believe they can overcome all the problems.

I said nothing of value this time around. Damn.

admin

pyro_o

The flaws of Tsusoka/Hiszuki are the very characteristics that define this pairings- the balance, the angst, the bittersweet fluff. I mean, bear with me for saying this- but if Hisoka WASN'T raped, and Tsuzuki WASN'T so mentally tortured...

Wouldn't you say that it isn't the same couple that you've come to love through their past experiences?

laustic

Tatsumi, I think, can handle Tsuzuki in small doses. Tsuzuki's emotions wears him out too easily and he knows this. He abandoned Tsuzuki when he no longer was able to deal with Tsuzuki and his bouts of depression. Hisoka, on the other hand, is able to deal with Tsuzuki even when the man's emotions take a toll on his empathy. More than that, Hisoka wants to stay with him no matter what even if it means dying for a second time. Hisoka won't let Tsuzuki go without a fight whereas Tatsumi will not. Not that he doesn't care because he most certainly does but I don't think he can handle what it means to take care of Tsuzuki. Hisoka can, he may not always do it well but he's more than willing to stay by Tsuzuki's side.

pyro_o

I mean.. Tsuzuki's bound to wear down Hisoka's empathy- his powers just make it even harder for him to bear with Tsuzuki. But him actually dealing with it just shows how stubborn he can be. And how much he loves him, if you're a Tsusoka fan. XD

admin

laustic

Yeah, I agree that it is one of the healthier relationships in the series. Tsuzuki needs someone a little more stable to help him get through the rough times.

laustic

I was reading theria.net's translation (sadly, most of my ynm books are back in the States, I was only able to take a couple of volumes with me to Japan) and it occurred to me that (while I do prefer the Viz translations) Viz made some changes that I don't think they should have done. When I was reading theria.net's translation I could clearly see how intimately close Hisoka and Tsuzuki are and there's more homoeroticism elements in the relationship. For example in the Devil's trill, when Hisoka left to see the chief, Hijiri and Tsuzuki were talking and Hijiri made a comment about how kind Tsuzuki was and Tsuzuki thought that Hisoka would be blushing if he said something like that to Tsuzuki. Tsuzuki then said "Well...that's because my passionate techinque has made him fall for me." Hijiri was shocked at this and asked "I don't want to ask but...is it like that?" I can't belive I missed this in the first place. Hijiri actually asked Tsuzuki if he and Hisoka had that kind of a relationship.

Since I don't have my copy with me I can't check to see how the scene was played out in the Viz translation but I don't remember it being like that. There are other times where Viz downplayed the intimatacy between Tsuzuki and Hisoka and I have to wonder if its because Hisoka is 16 and they don't want to show a sexually ambiguous relationship between a minor and an older man.

Rhea-sama

XD Wow.... yeah... it's... a lot subtler in the Viz version... you can see the echos of it there but.. xDDD

willag

Ooo, topic of seme and uke. Fun, fun, fun.

Honestly, one of those reasons that I love the TsuSoka relationship is that seme/uke dualism is very loose and fuzzy... they can easily go both ways.

But first, the question should be asked, how do you define seme and uke?

Some people, I believe, may use it in a sexual sense, where the lover/topper is the seme and the beloved/bottomer is the uke. Personally, I saw the concept of seme and uke as more of a relationship profiling... the seme is generally one who is more dominant, in control, perhaps appearing slightly more apathetic (not as emotional), a leader, and masculine while the uke is more submissive, responsive, receptive, a follower, and feminine. These generalizations aren't always 100% true, but there is some truth behind them.

Now, if we look at it from a RELATIONSHIP PROFILING/PERSONALITY aspect:

Tsuzuki and Hisoka, from these definitions, are malleable enough to be able to fit either role that the writer chooses of them. Let's look at the support for either case:

Hisoka as seme: Not hard to imagine - he has qualities we see in obvious semes (or rather the majority of the fandom supports) of other homogeneous relationships: Dee (Dee/Ryo) from FAKE, Muraki (Muraki/Hisoka... or hell, in almost every person he could get paired up with... shudder), Haruka (Haruka/Michiru) from Sailor Moon, Yuki (Yuki/Shuichi) from Gravitation, for example. He likes control, for one thing, built from stemming issues in his past (Muraki, his parents). He hates being viewed as a child (someone he considers is not capable of taking care himself or needs to be led). He has power issues - about becoming Tsuzuki's equal strength-wise and combat-wise, but also being able to overcome Muraki. He's more emotionally apathetic... not as intimate or cuddly or as open with his feelings. He is able to stay pretty level-headed through many issues and usually is more logically-oriented (and when going with gender stereotypes, it is viewed as more masculine).

Hisoka as uke: Okay, now for the flip side of the coin. When emotionally overwhelmed, he has more defensive techniques than offensive. His frame of mind is to fight, fight, fight, but he doesn't always respond in that way. In order to grow stronger, he has needed Tsuzuki as a support, and has willingly admitted to needing Tsuzuki. In many ways, he's like a lost child just wanting comfort. He tries to put up a front that he doesn't care, but really he can like the attention and does put value in other people helping him. He tries to act uncaring, but when put under stress will act emotional and needy.

Tsuzuki as seme: He is naturally strong and capable (at least in a physical and combative way). He has a strong desire to protect and will act upon it even at the cost of his life. He is like a role-model and parent for Hisoka, trying to help him become stronger and leading him down a safe path. He is Hisoka's initial guide, helping him adapt to his new way of life, and trying to help him change. He also, as it has been pointed out, has a dark side to him... a dark side that he has defined as a "vampire", willing to take others' lives at the cost of his desires and survival. There's also the issue with the large amount of power he has, as natural to him as Hisoka's empathy is to Hisoka. Tsuzuki is very much a seme in the beginning of the manga, where it seems he's more apathetic and mentally capable... he also appears to be darker... or at least willing to appear so.

Tsuzuki as uke: The flip side. He's extremely emotional and very needy... both his mask (or at least in the anime and the later part of the manga) and his true personality show this, though in different ways. For his mask, he acts like a child, playing the happy-go-lucky, genki role. He shows no qualms in crying in front of others, even if they end up being crocodile tears. He also is in constant need of attention - he'll even take the form of a puppy dog (something cute and cuddly... an animal that very few people can hate... and with the way he pulls it off, he can even make himself look like a lost, scared puppy... it's meant to manipulate people's emotions so that they feel more empathy towards something that's seen as so pathetically sad and abandoned... it's hard to say no to a face like that!). Once Tsuzuki's desire to be comforted overwhelms his fear of how people react to his true feelings (or if he's just too tired to care and put up the facade), he breaks down his barriers to show a man who's broken, needy, and filled with self-disgust and guilt. He's extremely emotional, breaking down in front of others and relying upon self-flagellation. He desires intimacy and close contact, openly touching others, and the only thing that holds him back from openly sharing his true feelings with others is his fear of them hating him. Either way, whether it's with a mask or his true personality, he is seen as someone who's needy, emotional, and intimate.

OVERALL:

Tsuzuki and Hisoka are made so that they can and do play both roles. It's a constant give and take process with the both of them. They both end up being pillars for the other, helping eachother grow and change. Without that dynamic, they'd be stagnant in both their relationship and personal development. Their relationship has developed the way that it has because they fill both roles and will flip when the time is needed. They have been shown to play both roles in the manga and the anime (Tsuzuki is ultimately the seme in the Nagasaki and King of Swords arcs and Hisoka is ultimately the seme in the Devil's Trill and Kyoto arcs - the Devil's Trill can be debateable, especially since Hisoka doesn't actually comfort Tsuzuki during the arc... he does, however, play a dominant role and attempts to save Tsuzuki), and that's also the way I write and further develop their relationship in my stories.

But if I had to choose personality-wise who better fits each role (and take away the relationship aspect), I'd have to say that I see Hisoka more as having a seme-like personality and Tsuzuki more as the uke-like personality. Naturally, I think that's the just the way they've grown to be and learn. As you can see in my reasoning above, I have a lot more reasoning on why Hisoka's more seme than uke, and then for Tsuzuki I have a lot more reasoning on why he's more uke than seme. Hisoka is much more mentally and psychologically stable than Tsuzuki, he's less open and trusts logic over emotions, and his natural tendency is to take action and confront his problems (maybe not in the best way, but he hates hiding and acting cowardly). Tsuzuki, however, is less stable mentally and psychologically, is much more open emotionally and with intimacy, and while he does fight to protect he will run away and give up when the going gets tough. They both have aspects of the seme and uke, but their more dominant tendencies, IMHO, are as described above. That's the just way I visualize them. Some people may see them in other ways. Mine is not the ultimate truth... just my own personal viewpoint and that's the way I write them.

So standing on their own, Hisoka would be the seme and Tsuzuki would be the uke. But in a relationship, I think they're pretty well-balanced in playing both roles.

Now, if we look at it in a SEXUAL aspect:

One's sexuality, I believe, is based more upon personal preference or the emotional need at the time. I don't think that personality ultimately defines which role someone plays, however, I will admit that there is a general pattern of people with uke personalities being the beloved/receiver and people with seme personalities being the lover/giver. So while there is a strong correlation between the two, I think it also ultimately bubbles down to personal preference and emotional need.

Now, Hisoka and Tsuzuki's situation is interesting. In one corner, you have a boy who's been raped and is insecure with intimate situations yet, however, hates not being in control; and then in the other corner, you have a man who likes to provide and guide others, yet is needy, craves intimacy, and who has issues with confidence and his self-image. I think they could go both ways.

And there's such a long argument that can be made either way. Tsuzuki would ultimately have to guide Hisoka through his issues of intimacy, and help him cope with the sexual aspects to the relationship. But once Hisoka becomes comfortable with the issue, I think he might be more comfortable being the lover. And Tsuzuki would understand either way, just as long as he could be with Hisoka. The emotional situation of Hisoka being on bottom though I think is a hard issue for many writers to pass up, which might be why there are more fics out there with Hisoka being the beloved (at least for fics when it is their first time). And I could see that as well. The issue of trust and Hisoka learning that being penetrated and submissive isn't necessarily a negative thing is a very tempting topic to write about and one that ultimately needs to be tackled in their relationship.

Personally, I once again see them as equals. However, if I had to make a decision, I'd be more inclined to believe that Hisoka is more often the lover and Tsuzuki is more often the beloved.

And I just typed a whole lot of crap, rambling on and on. I probably sound repetitive and annoying. I don't feel like double-checking over it now for mistakes and such. BLECH.

Anyways, that's just my two-cents to the whole seme/uke deal for TsuSoka. w00t! They are the best couple in YnM and one of my favorite couples EVER (for any series I've read or watched)! Go TsuSoka!

And I shall shut up now.

Anywho, have a great day!

Veleda

....I think I'm in love. The length. The character discussion. The sheer amount of thought. Marry me. You can be seme Wink

.

You've put down so many of my thoughts so eloquently. One of the things that I love most about Tsuzuki/Hisoka is that they don't fit neatly into rigid boxes, which is a point I often lose when I'm debating this topic.

I'm not fond of seme/uke relationship roles at all, in the end. They're too confining and stereotypical, not to mention full of misogynistic overtones. I shouldn't even use the words at all. If I want to talk about who's on top during sex, I should just say "top" and "bottom."

willag

Ooo, why gee, thank you for your kind words! I told myself that I was eventually going to reply to this post even though I knew it would be long. So I waited until I had two hours of free time yesterday and just let it all out! I really wanted to make sure I explained my reasoning well, and that it was detailed and organized, so I hope I achieved that.

As for marriage, I'm not certain how good of a seme I'll become. Maybe we'll switch off? And someday, I might just bring out the chains when I gain a backbone. Twisted Evil

Aw, I know what you mean about the whole seme and uke thing. I don't always like using the words 'cause I feel they fall under such simple, stereotypical categories, much like the gay, lesbian, and bi do.

However, I do use so as to get a general idea down on how relationships interract, b/c they're good for relationship and personality profiling. There are several couples in anime in which it's usually obvious how the two are going to react, just because of what roles they play amongst each other. To me, the Yuki/Shuichi pairing seems like an obvious seme/uke, stereotypical match, if a person were to make one. Not only do their personalities fit the profile of each one, but how they interract with each other coincides with the expectations. So, as a general reference, Yuki would be expected to top more often than Shuichi, b/c he would generally be the one making most of the decisions and taking control. So, if a person wanted to write Shuichi topping, they'd have to play around with the situations in order to make it appropriate... doesn't mean it can't happen, just means that he/she will need to put some reasoning behind it.

Tsuzuki and Hisoka may have personalities that better fit one category (to me, Hisoka just naturally has what would expected to be a seme-like personality while Tsuzuki is the other way), but how they interract with each other is more equal. Maybe that might be because they have near 50/50 seme/uke-ish tendencies or it might be because how they dictate and uphold themselves in front of others just doesn't matter when they become serious around one another... or it could be just because they go beyond stereotypes and normal expectations. That's what makes them so realistic. They're like normal people. We generalize and categorize people, things, places, and ideas everyday because it better helps us interract with others by organizing and simplifying things in our hectic lives. However, we're too complex just to be pinned down and stay completely predictable. Tsuzuki and Hisoka may show traits of being connected to different categories, but in the end they're too complex to be completely pinned down. That's at least the way I see it.

Anyways, the topic of seme/uke always comes up usually not because people want to debate their personalities or how they interract in front of others, but rather how they interract with only each other (most importantly in bed... because we're all horny perverts who want to see our favorite couples get their action on!). When alone together, I don't think how they interract really matters to them... and neither should it really matter to us. Just the fact that they're together and rely upon each other is what makes it so beautiful. The debate can be quite silly: "No, no, no, I think it's Hisoka who would be on top!" "What crap have you been smokin', man, he'd end up on bottom!" Who really cares in the end? As long as they're in character and love another, does it all really matter?

Actually, that brings me to another good topic. To see Hisoka being bottomed in the majority of fanfics out there doesn't bother me. To see his character bastardized in order to fit the role of the bottomed uke?... THAT PISSES ME OFF. Instead of just using the seme/uke generalizations as guidelines, some people seem to like to mold the character's personalities in order to fit the stereotype (or what they believe the stereotype to be). I hate seeing Hisoka all weepy and whiney and... and damnit like a little, innocent kid... or like a frilly, cute, innocent girl. And then Tsuzuki becomes the big, bad seme who's so extremely confident about things or is just so "manly". I've come across several doujinshi for Tsuzuki and Hisoka that are exactly like that. And I want to scream and tear my hair out. GAGH! It's not realistic! It's not their characters! It's like a really bad, nigthmarish version of Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf on drugs.

And I think doing that just comes with the mentality. 'Cause I ashamedly used to do that as well, when I first started to get into yaoi. 3x4 (TrowaxQuatre from Gundam Wing) was my first shounen-ai shipping. And I loved reading the stories where Quatre was defined as the "little one", playing the cutesy, innocent (big dewy eyes, extremely submissive, childish personality) beloved and Trowa was the capable, manly lover. I squealed when I read those stories. Now, they make me cringe just because they're so unbelievable and so... so... demoralizing. It's like waking up from a fairy-tale dreamland and accepting and liking things the way they are.

It doesn't mean one person can't have more tendencies one way or might have an interraction and/or personality that better fits one role... it just means that the roles aren't overempasized so that the characters literally become the roles rather than playing themselves.

So, yeah, any story where Hisoka and Tsuzuki are characterized as stereotypes rather than themselves (people, get into their frame of mind and always question yourself, "what would ______ do and why would he/she do so?") pisses me off. And that could be the reason why I might sometimes have more of an affinity for Hisoka topping and Tsuzuki bottoming, because generally the stories are more believeable and the alternative might just be a complete let-down. I don't know. Maybe I'm just biased.

And I've ranted again. But then again, this topic is an important one to me, so I guess I shouldn't be so surprised. Anywho, sorry for the many words and random rambling.

And have a wonderful day!

pyro_o

Aw... I come back and Veleda's in LOVE. That's so pleasing. (and that was a hell of an analyzation- gives me joy in my heart for the argumentative soul, it does..)

Tsusoka is the neverending complex of power, love, lust, empathy, and dark pasts. Simple as that, but when you look at it in different aspects, it's much, much different. Easy enough to say, and even easier to see the two in action; when the two put aside their feelings, it's like water turning into ice. Cold and predictable down to a science- Watari would love that. Drama, passion, conflict, and the like!

I've seen so many people claim that Tsusoka is their 'OTP', that it's 'LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT OMGGG!11!!!', and such. It's almost amusing, really; those two are much more than 'love at first sight', and if I remember correctly, Hisoka's first 'sight' of Tsuzuki was when he stuck a gun to his back. So much for love.

Sure, the two might fall in love, get over themselves, but if they did- where would Yami no Matsuei be right now? It's that streak of darkness and the two not-quite-letting-go of their own darker traits that gives the story the twist it's always had. It's not every day you get to see pretty, pretty men going about in the world, wielding guns in front of sadistic doctors and ofuda slips in front of vampiric souls and such. Quite an adventure.

I've come to the aspect of thinking that Tsusoka is 'love', indeed; the 'asexual' type. Three-point vocabulary word for me, right there.

Veleda · Sexualy Graphic Post

Pryo's comment about "love at first sight" is another example of fans trying to fit Tsuzuki and Hisoka's relationship into stereotypes and cliches. It's weird how few people appreciate creativity.

I try not to use people's core personality to determine sexual position. I have a very hard time invisioning Eiri bottoming to Shuichi, but that's not because he's more traditionally masculine, or because he makes most of the decisions (besides, I bet Shuichi gets his way often enough). Eiri seems to have trouble with the fact that he's attracted to and sleeping with another man, so he would likely be more comfortable penetrating, since that's "what men do" (though you can imagine what I think of that). Eiri is also the type of person who likes to be in control, or at least have the illusion that he is. ("I may be doing what he wants, but it's just because I feel like it. So there")

The need for control is clearly one of my biggest factors when determining sexual position.

And for me, it is a characterization issue. I can't help but feel that Hisoka bottoming the first time he has sex would be out of character. I understand the appeal of the trust it would take for Hisoka to bottom to Tsuzuki, but I don't think it's realistic for first time.

To illustrate my point, I'm going to go into some of the principles of healthy BDSM. Not that I think Hisoka and Tsuzuki are going to be having kinky sex the first time around (though I can dream that someday they will), but the same ideas apply.

You should know your boundries. Pushing yourself is all well and good, but you have the right to say, "no, I don't want to do that." There's nothing wrong or weak about not doing something that makes you uncomfortable.

If you're using BDSM or sex in general to work through past sexual abuse or assualt GO SLOWLY. If you had your hands tied behind you, were forced onto your knees, forced to perform oral sex, and then made to swallow, then for heaven's sake, don't do this all at once. Maybe the first few times all you do is give your partner oral sex, and spit out the semen. Anything else is dangerous.

Sex is likely to be difficult enough for Hisoka. He doesn't need to confront every problem head on the first time.

laustic

Hmm, I must be one of the only ones (if not the only one) who cannot see Hisoka being seme or the lover type. I only see Tsuzuki and Hisoka either being equals or Tsuzuki as the lover and Hisoka being the beloved. I know one thing for certain. None of the posters here will enjoy any of my fics since I have them in those roles.

Veleda

Come now, didn't Wilag just say that she cares more if they're in character and love each other? There're plenty of people here who would enjoy your fics. Don't stop posting on my account. And even I said that I think they can switch off.

By the way, would you be at interested in looking at good stories with Hisoka on top. You said that you had never found one that was any good. I'm not saying it will change your mind, but it might be nice to see what we're all going on about.

Rhea-sama

Willag has totally stolen anything left I had to say on this topic. And said it beautifully XD

And that one with the ice and hotness? "A Summer's Day" I think? Oh ya. That's some good Tsusokaness (with seme-Hisoka) right there.

laustic

Uh, where did I say that I was going to stop posting? I was making a simple comment. Don't get so bent out of shape over it.

pyro_o

true- I'm not one to go about LOOKING for R / NC17 fics, but I've never even come across a summary of a fic worth reading with Hisoka 'topping'. Odd. ><;

pity, though- it'd be so nice to see the boy get the power he wanted, and see how well he controlled it. if I didn't know any better, I'd say Hisoka's power hungry side might make him some sort of relative to Tatsumi. XD

willag

pyro_o

I think I would tell you that I loved you, if I could read these. XD

willag

pyro_o

simple- I'm too young to read these fics. XD

Veleda

Wow, you actually obey those laws? You're a much better citizen than I was at your age.

pyro_o

reading those fics and remembering what they contain isn't something I'd love to dwell on when my inner Christian gets bored. XD

admin

laustic

A couple of weeks ago I decided to delete a post I made but I'm reposting it. It has nothing to do with the seme/uke debate but I remembered the real reason why I started this thread and that's to share in the Tsuzuki/Hisoka love, not to debate who should top who. I don't know if anyone will care about reading this but here goes.

In volume 2, I think it's clear that Tsuzuki's attraction/love for Hisoka has grown considerably. Many fans seemed to think that he fell in love with Hijiri but I disagree. I do think he genuinely cares for Hijiri but there's a part of him that loves Hijiri because he looks like Hisoka. Hijiri is open about what he feels for Tsuzuki and doesn't have a problem with showing public displays of affection. Because of Hisoka's nature, he doesn't openly show that he cares. It'll be a long time before he's capable of doing that. Several times Tsuzuki makes comments about how much they look alike and how they are different. The Theria.net translations shows this better than Viz's version. When Hijiri compliments Tsuzuki the first thing he thinks is how Hisoka would blush if he said something like that to Tsuzuki. Tsuzuki also tells Hijiri how Hisoka "has fallen for him" and when Hijiri asks if their relationship was really "like that," Tsuzuki goes on to tease him that was a secret (I also wonder if Tsuzuki saying secret like that was a play one Hisoka's kanji character). Of course Hisoka overhears this and becomes angry but I think that has to do with the fact that it was the truth and Hisoka was embarrassed about it. Now, we come to the end of the volume where Tsuzuki is trapped in his own nightmare. He has the image of Hisoka telling him he hated him but then Hijiri appears telling him that he loves him. Again, I think this comes from the fact that Hijiri was so opened about his feelings rather than Tsuzuki being in love with him. It's important to note that the prominent person in his nightmare is Hisoka. Tsuzuki doesn't want to be hated by anyone of course but he seems much more concerned about Hisoka hating him.

What I wish that was in this volume was more of a confrontation between possessed Tsuzuki and Hisoka. Considering what Tsuzuki knows about Hisoka, Saggatanasus (sp?) could have made things alot more uncomfortable for Hisoka and I think it would have shown more how deep their relationship/friendship has gone in such a short amount of time of knowing each other. Also, Yoko should have put in a scene with Hisoka and Tsuzuki discussing how he "killed" Hisoka. Saggatanasus obviously thought that it would have devastated Tsuzuki to kill his own partner since he gloated about it.

Anyay there's my 2 cents.

Watari_loves_Tatsumi · OMG, YOU'VE PLAYED YNR

You've played Yami No ROMANCE?! Have you gotten Hijiri's ending? It's the only one I haven't found, and I've tried so hard. How do you, just, find him? I can probably finish it from there.

laustic

Thanks for the tip! I've been really wanting to play this game and I have tried searching for it on the site but to no avail. Now I'll have to go and search for it.

Paurie

This calls for the biggest gasp of all time!

*LE GASP!* D8

Didn't know.. there was a game...

Editor

AHHHHH I got on the site!! I got on the site!! Thanks WTL!! I'm gonna come back and comment on laustic's comment, probably WTL's too.

Tsuzuki and Hisoka

Sexualy Graphic Post

OMG, YOU'VE PLAYED YNR